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 Post subject: 100 Greatest NBA Basketball Players
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 2:36 am 
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The 100 Greatest NBA Basketball Players

Note from PGM: The criteria for this list is loosely defined as (1) Regular-Season Accomplishments, (2) Post-Season Accomplishments and (3) Impact/Influence on the game. (1) The regular-season-accomplishments criterion primarily focuses on awards, records, stats compared to their peers (and normalized stats for cross-era comparisons) for both peak play and longevity (rated equally). Team success in the regular season is a factor, but a small one. (2) The post-season-accomplishments criterion also focus on awards, records and stats, but the primary emphasis is on team success (championships, finals appearances, conference finals appearances) and performance in big/deciding games (particular clutch play). (3) The impact/influence-on-the-game criterion is an assessment of a player's legacy. This includes influence on future generations, the game itself (such as causing rule changes) and even bringing the popularity of basketball to new levels. All criteria are weighed the same, with a huge advantage in one criterion worth more than a small advantage in the other two.

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1. Michael Jordan
Michael Jordan was the most dominant player of the late 1980s and 1990s: a relentless competitor, an athletic specimen, and a brilliant basketball mind. He became the most feared player of his generation at both ends of the court and perhaps the most iconic sports figure in pop culture, ever.
Position: Shooting Guard (Small Forward, Point Guard)
Number: 23 (Chicago Bulls, Washington Wizards), 45 (Chicago Bulls)
Drafted: 1st Round, 3rd Pick in 1984 (Chicago Bulls)
Retired: 2003 (15 seasons)
Teams: Chicago Bulls (13 seasons), Washington Wizards (2 seasons)
Team Success: 6 NBA Championships, 6 NBA Finals Appearances, 8 NBA Conference Finals Appearances, 13 NBA Playoff Appearances
Individual Accomplishments: 5 NBA MVPs, 6 NBA Finals MVPs, 14 All-Star Appearances, 2 All-Star MVPs, 10x All-NBA 1st Team (1x All-NBA 2nd Team), 9x NBA All-Defensive 1st Team
Career Per Game Stats (NBA Rank): 30.1 ppg (1st), 6.2 rpg, 5.3 apg (81st), 2.3 spg (3rd), 0.8 bpg, .497 FG%
Career Totals (NBA Rank): 32,292 pts (3rd), 6,672 rebs, 5,633 asts (35th), 2,514 stls (2nd), 893 blks (93rd), 27.9 PER (1st)

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2. Bill Russell
Bill Russell was, without question, the greatest winner in NBA history, winning 11 championships in 13 years. More than that, he revolutionized the game, bringing defense, rebounding and shotblocking into prominence. While he was never the dominant scorer that many of the others on this list are, he was the key to the Celtics' success and changed basketball forever.

Position: Center
Number: 6 (Boston Celtics)
Drafted: 1st Round, 2nd Pick in 1956 (St Louis Hawks)
Retired: 1969 (13 seasons)
Teams: Boston Celtics (13 seasons)
Team Success: 11 NBA Championships, 12 NBA Finals Appearances, 13 NBA Conference Finals Appearances, 13 NBA Playoff Appearances
Individual Accomplishments: 5 NBA MVPs, 12 All-Star Appearances, 1 All-Star MVPs, 3x All-NBA 1st Team (8x All-NBA 2nd Team), 1x NBA All-Defensive 1st Team
Career Per Game Stats (NBA Rank): 15.1 ppg, 22.5 rpg (2), 4.3 apg, .440 FG%
Career Totals (NBA Rank): 14,522 pts, 21,620 rebs (2), 4,100 asts (94th), 18.9 PER (96th)



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3. Wilt Chamberlain
Wilt Chamberlain was the most unstoppable individual player of his era and arguably the most dominant player ever. He led three different franchises to the NBA Finals, and was the biggest challenge to the Celtics dynasty, having faced them in numerous Eastern Conference Finals and NBA Finals. His statistical feat of 100 points in a game is the most legendary individual achievement in NBA history in most people's opinion.
Position: Center
Number: 13 (San Francisco/Philadelphia Warriors, Philadelphia 76ers, Los Angeles Lakers)
Drafted: Territorial Pick in 1959 (Philadelphia Warriors)
Retired: 1973 (14 Seasons)
Teams: San Francisco/Philadelphia Warriors (5 1/2 Seasons), Philadelphia 76ers (3 1/2 Seasons), Los Angeles Lakers (5 Seasons)
Team Success: 2 NBA Championships, 6 NBA Finals Appearances, 12 NBA Conference Finals Appearances, 13 NBA Playoff Appearances
Individual Accomplishments: 4 NBA MVPs, 1 NBA Finals MVP, 13 All-Star Appearances, 1 All-Star MVP, 7x All-NBA 1st Team (3x All-NBA 2nd Team), 2x NBA All-Defensive 1st Team
Career Per Game Stats (NBA Rank): 30.1 ppg (2nd), 22.9 rpg (1st), 4.4 apg, .540 FG% (24th)
Career Totals (NBA Rank): 31,419 pts (4th), 23,924 rebs (1st), 4,643 asts (59th), 26.1 PER (5th)


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4. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Kareem Adbul-Jabbar came into the league as one of the most hyped rookies ever and didn't disappoint. He dominated immediately and didn't stop for 20 years, picking up six championships and six MVPs. He retired as the game's all-time leading scorer. The majority of his points where an almost unblockable skyhook that frustrated big men from Wilt Chamberlain to Hakeem Olajuwon.

Position: Center
Number: 33
Drafted: 1st Round, 1st Pick in 1969 (Milwaukee Bucks)
Retired: 1989 (20 seasons)
Teams: Milwaukee Bucks, Los Angeles Lakers
Team Success: 6 NBA Championships, 10 NBA Finals Appearances, 14 NBA Conference Finals Appearances, 18 Playoff Appearances.
Individual Accomplishments: 6 NBA MVPs, 2 NBA Finals MVPs, 19 All-Star Appearances, 10x All-NBA 1st Team (5x All-NBA 2nd Team), 5x All-Defensive 1st Team (6x All-Defensive 2nd Team)
Career Per Game Stats (NBA Rank): 24.6 ppg (16th), 11.2 rpg (23rd), 3.6 apg, 0.9spg, 2.6 bpg (8th)
Career Totals (NBA Rank): 38,387 pts (1st), 17,440 rebs (3rd), 5,660 ast (36th), 1,160 stls (87th), 3,189 blks (3rd), 24.6 PER (12th)
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5. Magic Johnson
Erving "Magic" Johnson was not only arguably the game's greatest point guard, but one of the game's best do-everything players. As a rookie, he famously jumped center, filling in for all-time great Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, and defended all five positions to help the Lakers win the championship. He ran the Showtime Lakers, one of the most exciting offenses of all time, making dazzling no-look passes and hitting clutch shots. Along with rival Larry Bird of the Boston Celtics, Johnson helped usher in a new era of popularity for the NBA.

Position: Point Guard (Shooting Guard, Forward, Center)
Number: 32
Drafted: 1st Round, 1st Pick in 1979 (Los Angeles Lakers)
Retired: 1991, 1996 (13 seasons)
Teams: Los Angeles Lakers
Team Success: 5 NBA Championships, 9 NBA Finals Appearances, 10 NBA Conference Finals Appearances, 13 Playoff Appearances.
Individual Accomplishments: 3 NBA MVPs, 3 NBA Finals MVPs, 12 All-Star Appearances, 9x All-NBA 1st Team (1x All-NBA 2nd Team)
Career Per Game Stats (NBA Rank): 19.5 ppg (65th), 7.2 rpg, 11.2 apg (1), 1.9spg (15), 0.4 bpg
Career Totals (NBA Rank): 17,707 pts (70th), 6,559 rebs, 10,141 ast (5th), 1,724 stls (17th), 374 blks, 24.1 PER (13th)

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6. Larry Bird
Larry Bird was a great shooter and relentless competitor, leading the Celtics to three championships. He always seemed to make the clutch play, hitting the big shot, making the big steal, or completing the perfect pass to a teammate to will his teams to victory. Bird's rookie season saw one of the biggest team turnarounds in NBA history. Along with rival Magic Johnson, Bird helped usher in a new era of popularity for the NBA.

Position: Small Forward (Power Forward)
Number: 33
Drafted: 1st Round, 6th Pick in 1978 (Boston Celtics)
Retired: 1992 (13 seasons)
Teams: Boston Celtics
Team Success: 3 NBA Championships, 5 NBA Finals Appearances, 8 NBA Conference Finals Appearances, 12 Playoff Appearances.
Individual Accomplishments: 3 NBA MVPs, 2 NBA Finals MVPs, 12 All-Star Appearances, 9x All-NBA 1st Team (1x All-NBA 2nd Team), 3x All-Defensive 2nd Team
Career Per Game Stats (NBA Rank): 24.3 ppg (17th), 10.0 rpg (41), 6.3 apg (42), 1.7spg (25), 0.8 bpg
Career Totals (NBA Rank): 21,791 pts (30th), 8,974 rebs (48th), 5,695 ast (35th), 1,556 stls (31st), 755 blks, 23.5 PER (17th)

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7. Shaquille O'Neal
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8. Tim Duncan
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9. Kobe Bryant
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10. LeBron James
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11. Oscar Robertson
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12. Jerry West
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13. Hakeem Olajuwon
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14. George Mikan
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15. Julius Erving
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16. Elgin Baylor
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17. Moses Malone
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18. Bob Pettit
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19. Karl Malone
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20. Bob Cousy
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21. John Havlicek
22. Charles Barkley
23. Dirk Nowitzki
24. Kevin Garnett
25. David Robinson
26. Isiah Thomas
27. John Stockton
28. Scottie Pippen
29. Dolph Schayes
30. Steve Nash

31. Allen Iverson
32. Rick Barry
33. Jason Kidd
34. Walt Frazier
35. Patrick Ewing
36. Elvin Hayes
37. Willis Reed
38. Dave Cowens
39. George Gervin
40. Gary Payton

41. Paul Arizin
42. Sam Jones
43. Dwyane Wade
44. Kevin McHale
45. Bill Walton
46. Bob McAdoo
47. Clyde Drexler
48. Bill Sharman
49. Paul Pierce
50. Dominique Wilkins

51. Nate Archibald
52. Wes Unseld
53. Hal Greer
54. Robert Parish
55. Dwight Howard
56. James Worthy
57. Dave DeBusschere
58. Dennis Johnson
59. Nate Thurmond
60. Reggie Miller

61. Jerry Lucas
62. Tommy Heinsohn
63. Pete Maravich
64. Billy Cunningham
65. Ray Allen
66. Tracy McGrady
67. Neil Johnston
68. Dave Bing
69. Alex English
70. Adrian Dantley

71. Bob Lanier
72. Lenny Wilkens
73. Artis Gilmore
74. Dennis Rodman
75. Alonzo Mourning
76. Joe Dumars
77. Kevin Durant
78. Bernard King
79. Sidney Moncrief
80. Chris Webber

81. Grant Hill
82. Bob Davies
83. Walt Bellamy
84. Earl Monroe
85. Chris Paul
86. David Thompson
87. George Yardley
88. Ed Macauley
89. Chris Mullin
90. Vince Carter

91. Derrick Rose
92. Gus Johnson
93. Kevin Johnson
94. Paul Westphal
95. Jo Jo White
96. Chauncey Billups
97. Pau Gasol
98. Bobby Dandridge
99. Tim Hardaway
100. Connie Hawkins
Manu Ginobili
edited by pgm


Last edited by pave on Wed Feb 16, 2011 4:03 pm, edited 6 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest NBA Basketball Players
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 2:36 am 
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thought this deserved a post.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest NBA Basketball Players
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 2:37 am 
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also, i still think Russell > Wilt and Shaq/Dream/Duncan > Oscar


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest NBA Basketball Players
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 4:05 am 
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Wow, I really needed to update this thing some point in the past 2 years. I think some combination of Chamberlain, Jordan, Russell, and Abdul-Jabbar are undoubtedly the top 4.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest NBA Basketball Players
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 11:13 am 
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Jordan
Russell
Alcindor
Wilt
Johnson


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest NBA Basketball Players
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 11:14 am 
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And here's my argument for Russell: 11.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest NBA Basketball Players
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 12:53 pm 
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Why is Julius Erving in the top ten???
And why is Chamberlain ahead of Russell???


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest NBA Basketball Players
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 1:22 pm 
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my top 14:
1. Jordan
2. Russell
3. Kareem
4. Magic
5. Bird
6. Duncan
7. Shaq
8. Kobe
9. Wilt
10. Dream
11. West
12. Big O
13. Moses
14. Dr. J

i could see Wilt at 6 and the Duncan/Shaq/Kobe trio right behind him. and West vs Big O is a toss up.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest NBA Basketball Players
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 1:27 pm 
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pave wrote:
my top 14:
1. Jordan
2. Russell
3. Kareem
4. Magic
5. Bird
6. Duncan
7. Shaq
8. Kobe
9. Wilt
10. Dream
11. West
12. Big O
13. Moses
14. Dr. J

i could see Wilt at 6 and the Duncan/Shaq/Kobe trio right behind him. and West vs Big O is a toss up.


Wait a second. Oscar Robertson not in the top ten??? That's insane. Big O and Dr. J a toss-up???
Oscar Robertson certainly had a better all-around game than Dr. J.
Wilt at number 9??? That's shockingly low.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest NBA Basketball Players
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 2:45 pm 
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it says West vs Big O, not Dr. J vs Big O

anyway, i dont believe Oscar should be above anyone in the top 10. his career just doesnt match theirs. how my top 12 breaks down:

Jordan: 6 titles, 5 MVPs, 6 finals appearances, 14 All-Star selections
Russell: 11 titles, 5 MVPs, 12 finals appearances, 12 All-Star selections
Kareem: 6 titles, 6 MVPs, 10 finals appearances, 19 All-Star selections
Magic: 5 titles, 3 MVPs, 9 finals appearances, 12 All-Star selections
Bird: 3 titles, 3 MVPs, 5 finals appearances, 12 All-Star selections
Wilt: 2 titles, 4 MVPs, 6 finals appearances, 13 All-Star selections
Duncan: 4 titles, 2 MVPs, 4 finals appearances, 12 All-Star selections
Shaq: 4 titles, 1 MVP, 6 finals appearances, 15 All-Star selections
Kobe: 5 titles, 1 MVP, 7 finals appearances, 12 All-Star selections
Dream: 2 titles, 1 MVP, 3 finals appearances, 12 All-Star selections
West: 1 title, 0 MVPs, 9 finals appearances, 14 All-Star selections
Oscar: 1 title, 1 MVP, 2 finals appearances, 12 All-Star selections

his 1 title was in the winter years of his career with a young Kareem leading his team. his stats are inflated by the higher pace of play during that time.

and you can argue that he didnt have a quality team or whatever. but we arent talking about 1 finals appearance vs 2 or 3. in most cases, these guys dominated their leagues for anywhere from 4-12 years. the closest case could be made that he should be above Dream and West. but thats it. how can you look at the careers of Shaq or Kobe and determine that he should be above them?


edit: Oscar went to 2 finals.


Last edited by pave on Fri Oct 15, 2010 3:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest NBA Basketball Players
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 3:06 pm 
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pave wrote:
it says West vs Big O, not Dr. J vs Big O

anyway, i dont believe Oscar should be above anyone in the top 10. his career just doesnt match theirs. how my top 12 breaks down:

Jordan: 6 titles, 5 MVPs, 6 finals appearances, 14 All-Star selections
Russell: 11 titles, 5 MVPs, 11 finals appearances, 12 All-Star selections
Kareem: 6 titles, 6 MVPs, 10 finals appearances, 19 All-Star selections
Magic: 5 titles, 3 MVPs, 9 finals appearances, 12 All-Star selections
Bird: 3 titles, 3 MVPs, 5 finals appearances, 12 All-Star selections
Wilt: 2 titles, 4 MVPs, 6 finals appearances, 13 All-Star selections
Duncan: 4 titles, 2 MVPs, 4 finals appearances, 12 All-Star selections
Shaq: 4 titles, 1 MVP, 6 finals appearances, 15 All-Star selections
Kobe: 5 titles, 1 MVP, 7 finals appearances, 12 All-Star selections
Dream: 2 titles, 1 MVP, 3 finals appearances, 12 All-Star selections
West: 1 title, 0 MVPs, 9 finals appearances, 14 All-Star selections
Oscar: 1 title, 1 MVP, 1 finals appearance, 12 All-Star selections

his 1 title was in the winter years of his career with a young Kareem leading his team. his stats are inflated by the higher pace of play during that time.

and you can argue that he didnt have a quality team or whatever. but we arent talking about 1 finals appearance vs 2 or 3. in most cases, these guys dominated their leagues for anywhere from 4-11 years. the closest case could be made that he should be above Dream and West. but thats it. how can you look at the careers of Shaq or Kobe and determine that he should be above them?


To me putting Duncan ahead of Robertson is kind of funny. Sure he has more MVP's and sure he has more trophies, but don't players get MVP awards and championships because they have great teammates? Yes, they do. Duncan has never been as dominant as The Big O and The Big O has certainly made a larger impact on the sport. He was Jordan before Jordan. Duncan, in my eyes, was always consistently great, but never consistently dominant.

As for The Big O vs. West, well that one is easy:
The Big O has just as many championships (1) as West and won an MVP (West never won one and never deserved one). Even when The Big O was with Milwaukee those teams were never as good as West's Laker teams.

Career Stats:
Oscar Robertson: 25.7 PPG, 7.5 RPG, 9.5 APG, .485 FG%
Jerry West: 27.0 PPG, 5.8 RPG, 6.7 APG, .474 FG%

Robertson was a better shooter, rebounder and passer
West was a better scorer and defender.

However, let's not forget that when Robertson went to the Bucks his scoring went down in order to groom Kareem into the player he would become.

Robertson>Duncan>West>Olajuwon

Question: Is championships the most important criteria???


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest NBA Basketball Players
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 3:30 pm 
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mvp award shares for those 12

1. Michael Jordan 8.138
2. Kareem 6.203
3. Larry Bird 5.693
4. Magic Johnson 5.129
5. Bill Russell 4.827
6. Shaquille O'Neal 4.380

7. Karl Malone 4.296
8. Wilt Chamberlain 4.269
9. Tim Duncan 4.205
10. Kobe Bryant 3.409

11. David Robinson 3.123
12. LeBron James 3.070
13. Moses Malone 2.873
14. Kevin Garnett 2.752
15. Bob Pettit 2.628
16. Hakeem Olajuwon 2.611
17. Oscar Robertson 2.479

18. Charles Barkley 2.438
19. Steve Nash 2.423
20. Jerry West 2.090

once again, those top 9 guys should be written in stone imo. then after Moses and Dr. J, id have the other 11 guys in the top 25- in no real order- as being Karl Malone, LeBron, Havlicek, Cousy, Stockton, Pettit, Mikan, Barkley, Garnett, Isiah, and Baylor.

then from 25 on the next names i would throw out would be Pippen, David Robinson, Barry, Walton, Nowitzki, Nash, Frazier, Reed, Iverson, McHale, Kidd, Ewing, Schayes and Gervin with Cowens finishing off the top 40. then to round out the top 50 id throw in Sam Jones, Arizin, Hayes, Unseld, Wade, Maravich, Drexler, Payton, Greer, and Sharman. just my opinion.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest NBA Basketball Players
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 3:45 pm 
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BayPineapple wrote:
To me putting Duncan ahead of Robertson is kind of funny. Sure he has more MVP's and sure he has more trophies, but don't players get MVP awards and championships because they have great teammates? Yes, they do. Duncan has never been as dominant as The Big O and The Big O has certainly made a larger impact on the sport. He was Jordan before Jordan. Duncan, in my eyes, was always consistently great, but never consistently dominant.


Duncan only seems not dominate because he's never been flashy nor has he made his impact greatest as a scorer. he's one of the top 2 or 3 defenders in history in the post along with Russell and Dream, probably has the best post game outside of Dream and McHale and is one of the better passing big men in history. Duncan never had the great team most people think he did. he had a post-injury Robinson at good strength for 1 title and almost dead for the 2nd. that 2nd title, the 3rd highest scorer on the team was Stephen Jackson at 11 points per game and Parker was 20 years old. Bruce Bowen, before he got to SA, couldnt find a job anywhere else. there starting centers after Robinson have been wha? Elson and Nazr? they've never had a great bench- just plucky veterans looking for a ring.

statistically, he has a higher PER than Oscar too. its just that Oscar's bulk numbers stick out so much. and its not like he was playing with scrubs. Jack Twyman and Jerry Lucas are top 100 of all time in most people's eyes.

BayPineapple wrote:
As for The Big O vs. West, well that one is easy:
The Big O has just as many championships (1) as West and won an MVP (West never won one and never deserved one). Even when The Big O was with Milwaukee those teams were never as good as West's Laker teams.

Career Stats:
Oscar Robertson: 25.7 PPG, 7.5 RPG, 9.5 APG, .485 FG%
Jerry West: 27.0 PPG, 5.8 RPG, 6.7 APG, .474 FG%

Robertson was a better shooter, rebounder and passer
West was a better scorer and defender.


West never deserved one? he got ripped off in '70 when the award went to Willis Reed due to the NY media hyping up that team like it was sent from heaven. he almost won anyway and had a stat line of 31/4.5/7.5.

as for their game, Oscar was the better scorer perhaps in his prime but West was great for longer and Oscar was never a better shooter than West. why do you say that?

the flip side of the "he was on the better team" argument is that having a guy like Baylor on his team also meant West's stats dropped, as you pointed out with Oscar going to Milwaukee.

BayPineapple wrote:
Question: Is championships the most important criteria???


what else would be? piling up stats on a bad team cant be. im not asking for Havlicek and Cousy to be over Oscar, just guys who were the best players in the league while also chasing multiple championships.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest NBA Basketball Players
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 3:52 pm 
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Damn, you won. I agree with all of your points. I used to be a huge basketball buff, but I have kind of ignored the sport the past two years so maybe I don't have all my facts straight.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest NBA Basketball Players
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 3:54 pm 
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BayPineapple wrote:
Career Stats:
Oscar Robertson: 25.7 PPG, 7.5 RPG, 9.5 APG, .485 FG%
Jerry West: 27.0 PPG, 5.8 RPG, 6.7 APG, .474 FG%


Career Playoff Stats:
Oscar Robertson: 22.2 PPG, 6.7 RPG, 8.9 APG, .460 FG%
Jerry West: 29.1 PPG, 5.6 RPG, 6.3 APG, .469 FG%

West led the league in PPG 4 playoffs in his career. Oscar never did, despite leading in minutes per game 3 times. West scored 40 points a game over the stretch of 11 playoff games in '65. and he's the only person to ever win Finals MVP on a losing team, because everyone agreed to outplayed everybody.


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