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 Post subject: Re: Black Sabbath
PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 3:47 pm 
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I see. I would love to own one like that too but I think only the few deserving ones own it!

About BS, the tier is good apart from Black Sabbath not being orange, that one still is one of the most important albums of metal.


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 Post subject: Re: Black Sabbath
PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 8:53 pm 
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corrections wrote:
Piper if I understand your tier system correctly orange is the top while red is the next. I think Sabbath should only have two orange. However, their debut most certainly should be the other orange along with Paranoid. It is their most influential work and their most important from a term of laying stylistic groundwork. Paranoid is their most popular and their second most influential and represents further development of their style. Everything after that is a further development but nothing was as original or as important as those two. As great of an album as MoR is it is not the other orange candidate.


This.


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 Post subject: Re: Black Sabbath
PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 9:02 pm 
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Quinnsy Lohan wrote:
Master of Reality should be orange bold. More so than the self-titled, I think.


Nesquik wrote:
I concur.


bloodredchaos wrote:
Yep. It's not even questionable.


:tongue:


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 Post subject: Re: Black Sabbath
PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 10:17 pm 
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Curiosity wrote:
Sid_Vicious_24 wrote:
Not really.


Yes really.


No. Top level Dio Sabbath is better than mid-low tier Ozzy Sabbath but that's all. Low tier Dio Sabbath is of course fairly bad.

I like much of the Dio material quite a bit and I think Heaven and Hell in particular is a standout and a very important album but they don't stack up musically to Sabbath's early work. Ozzy had little creative input in Sabbath itself. Iommi and Geezer were the two main forces with Geezer writing the lyrics. With Dio coming in Geezer allowed him to take the reigns there to the general detriment of the lyrics. But more to the point (since Sabbath lyrics are mere framing devices for the musical ideas much of the time) the chief songwriting team didn't change. Iommi is the absolute heart of the band. What he always did in writing was write to the vocalist such that the music fit whoever happened to be the vocalist. And even though Ozzy can't sing as well technically as Dio by a long shot he was absolutely perfect as a muse for Iommi to express Sabbath's most interesting, innovative, and dark music. Because Ozzy couldn't sing very well Iommi and Butler were able to come up with "Black Sabbath" where Ozzy's dissonant shouts and screams fit perfectly over the brilliant riff work building to a crescendo in the solo. Furthermore Ozzy's voice was perfect for the experimentation they got into from Vol. 4 on.

Dio sings technically better but in that sense his voice is rather limiting because his style doesn't change up to really let Tony explore freely. And let's be clear here Tony Iommi IS at least 60% of Black Sabbath's sound. Geezer fills about 25% with only about 20% left over for the other members. Sabbath is not and has never been about the vocals.


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 Post subject: Re: Black Sabbath
PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 10:29 pm 
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Nesquik wrote:
Georgi wrote:
It's their strongest album.


Definetly.


Not.

Master of Reality is their tightest and most consistent effort but Sabbath isn't at their best at their tightest and most consistent. I'd hold up the two best on Master of Reality as After Forever and Lord of this World. Into the Void also justifiably get's held up for high praise and Sweet Leaf, while a tad overplayed is excellent. Then of course their is the excellent and criminally underrated Solitude. However, that is balanced somewhat but the criminally overrated (but still good) Children of the Grave. Then there are the little acoustic interludes but that's about it for the album. The album has the least musical range of any Ozzy era album.

I'll compare it to Paranoid as its most similar work (Black Sabbath is my favorite of theirs but it is such a raw musical statement that it really stands by itself). Both have the crushingly heavy track (Into the Void and Electric Funeral). Both have the catchier slow riff number (Sweet Leaf and Iron Man). Both have an achingly beautiful soft number (Planet Caravan and Solitude). Both have their faster paced poppier numbers (Paranoid and Children of the Grave). But let's compare the two centerpieces long songs from the album. In all cases except the first Paranoid outclasses Master of Reality. For Master of Reality it is the two I mentioned earlier. For Paranoid it is War Pigs and Hand of Doom. Master of Reality's are great but they are both very similar. War Pigs and Hand of Doom are both quite different (indeed Hand of Doom is like few metal or even pop songs as it climaxes about a halfway through and then slowly diffuses tension without leaving much resolution and starting as quietly as it began). War Pigs builds more like a traditional epic but it is Sabbath at their songwriting peak. I haven't even mentioned Fairies Wear Boots.

Of course Paranoid has Rat Salad which is a bit unnecessary and weaker than anything on Master of Reality. And it's pacing and structure probably isn't as tight and its theme not as consistent. It feels in some senses more like a collection of songs than Master of Reality but that's what really works about it. It is Sabbath exploring tons of musical ground and expanding on their concept. It doesn't have the raw unbridled power of the first which is why it falls short but it is what they do best.


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 Post subject: Re: Black Sabbath
PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 10:30 pm 
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Two Headed Boy wrote:
Nah sons, Master of Reality is damn close to SBS, but the title track along with A National Acrobat, Spiral Architect, Sabbra Cadabra and Killing Yourself To Live are too good.


Problem with Sabbath Bloody Sabbath comes in Who Are You? being a dud.


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 Post subject: Re: Black Sabbath
PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 10:48 pm 
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Nah, Master of Reality is actually their best album. You can't tell me I'm wrong because that's my opinion.

Anyone, is there any reason why the can't have three oranges? They can be considered part of that higher tier of bands that deserve more than one or two.


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 Post subject: Re: Black Sabbath
PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 11:22 pm 
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I've been enjoying Black Sabbath lately


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 Post subject: Re: Black Sabbath
PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 12:04 am 
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Who are you? Damn dude, good stuff. Standouts?


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 Post subject: Re: Black Sabbath
PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 12:33 am 
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idrk yet, i just have been enjoying the first three albums lately


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 Post subject: Re: Black Sabbath
PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 1:00 am 
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Check out Sabbath Bloody Sabbath also. A couple duds, but also some of the best stuff they ever did: Sabbath Bloody Sabbath, A National Acrobat, Sabbra Cadabra, Spiral Architect.


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 Post subject: Re: Black Sabbath
PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 1:25 am 
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clarksided wrote:
I've been enjoying Black Sabbath lately


That's great clark.


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 Post subject: Re: Black Sabbath
PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 1:27 am 
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Nesquik wrote:
Nah, Master of Reality is actually their best album. You can't tell me I'm wrong because that's my opinion.

Anyone, is there any reason why the can't have three oranges? They can be considered part of that higher tier of bands that deserve more than one or two.


Well I'd be OK with 3 (although honestly I think 4 is the better albums mainly because Wheel of Confusion and Snowblind are two massively awesome tracks) but if there are two picked then it has to be the first two. I mean I'd say the first album is literally the most important heavy metal album ever recorded and the top essential album to listen to from the genre. Black Sabbath is also the most important metal song ever recorded.


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 Post subject: Re: Black Sabbath
PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 3:21 am 
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I'd beg to differ and say Paranoid is the most important metal album, but they are pretty much 1 and 2 anyway.


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 Post subject: Re: Black Sabbath
PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 6:36 am 
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corrections wrote:
Nesquik wrote:
Nah, Master of Reality is actually their best album. You can't tell me I'm wrong because that's my opinion.

Anyone, is there any reason why the can't have three oranges? They can be considered part of that higher tier of bands that deserve more than one or two.


Well I'd be OK with 3 (although honestly I think 4 is the better albums mainly because Wheel of Confusion and Snowblind are two massively awesome tracks) but if there are two picked then it has to be the first two. I mean I'd say the first album is literally the most important heavy metal album ever recorded and the top essential album to listen to from the genre. Black Sabbath is also the most important metal song ever recorded.


4 should be seen as one of their greatest, not only because of quality, but because I think a lot of doom metal owes a lot to that album in particular.


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