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 Post subject: Re: Boxing.
PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 10:17 pm 
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MY top 10 featherweights of all-time plus honorable mention

1 Willie Pep
2 Sandy Saddler
3 Freddie Miller
4 Vicente Saldivar
5 Johnny Dundee
6 Salvador Sanchez
7 George Dixon
8 Abe Attell
9 Battling Battalino
10 Johnny Kilbane

Honorable mention: Baby Arizmendi, Marco Antonio Barrera, Benny Bass, Kid Chocolate, Jim Driscoll, Jeff Fenech, Wilfredo Gomez, Young Griffo, Azumah Nelson, Eusebio Pedroza


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 Post subject: Re: Boxing.
PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 5:09 am 
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Watched the Manny/Margarito fight yesterday.

dmille - youre right about it should have been stopped. Manny was almost begging the ref in the 10th and 11th to step in. AM's braveness cant be denied, but that sort of continuous hammering can end a career and I think the referee shirked his responsibility.

Will Manny fight Mosely and if so, what will happen ?


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 Post subject: Re: Boxing.
PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 12:58 pm 
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The Seeker wrote:
Watched the Manny/Margarito fight yesterday.

dmille - you're right about it should have been stopped. Manny was almost begging the ref in the 10th and 11th to step in. AM's braveness cant be denied, but that sort of continuous hammering can end a career and I think the referee shirked his responsibility.

Will Manny fight Mosely and if so, what will happen ?


I would have liked to have seen him fight Mosley before Shane fought Mayweather. Now with Floyd having defeated Shane so one-sidedly, I don't know how you sell the fight. Mosley would have to put together a real big win or two.

At this point, Pacquiao needs a challenge. Marquez is now too small for a third fight with Manny IMO.

We have the winners of Bradley-Alexander and Khan-Maidana. Andre Berto's out there too. But Manny has to be favored over them. Can he make 140 or would they move up to 147?

Floyd is obvious. After a certain point, you have to wonder why the fight isn't being made.

Then finally there's the Martinez-Williams RE winner. Pacman wins the middleweight belt, even in a catch-weight fight, and you can just add his name to the list with Ray Robinson and Henry Armstrong. Either of them would be a monumental opponent for Manny, but their records show they aren't unbeatable. Just watch Quintana-Williams 1 again. I can see Pac beating them.

He wouldn't need Jr at that point. Floyd would need him. And then if Manny retired, history would point to Floyd's career as the promise unrealized.


Last edited by dmille on Wed Nov 17, 2010 5:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Boxing.
PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 10:04 pm 
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i read an article saying pacman's greatness is approaching sugar ray's and ali's... what do you boxing fiends say to that?


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 Post subject: Re: Boxing
PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 11:42 pm 
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George wrote:
i read an article saying pacman's greatness is approaching sugar ray's and ali's... what do you boxing fiends say to that?


I personally see greatness as a hierarchy; "great", then "legend" then "all-time great".

A fighter can prove themselves "great" in one of three ways. 1) Have a great record 2) Win great fights 3) Defeat great fighters. The "legend" combines all three of those into one fighter.

The "all-time great" needs to prove more. I have two criteria; 1) total dominance 2) pound-for-pound.

The most dominant fighter is the undisputed champion who defends against their (true, not alphabet) number one contender once a year. Many would cite longevity, but IMO it comes after dominance. Get to the top by defeating everyone, then stay on top by defeating the next generation of up-coming fighters.

To the all-time great, weight (within reason) doesn't matter. A fighter can prove themselves pound-for-pound in two ways. One is by moving up in weight and defeating bigger fighters. The second is the bigger fighter who stops the smaller fighter from successfully moving up in weight. Every heavyweight fight is automatically pound-for-pound due to the unlimited nature of the division.

Take most any traditional weight division, rank your all-time top ten. The fighters who rank 6-10 will have my 1st three criteria and a some balance between the last two. The 1-5 fighters will clearly have all five...

Manny is not quite there yet. He has a great record. He has defeated great fighters. He has won great fights. He has won alphabet titles at flyweight, featherweight, lightweight and welterweight. He is the 1st fighter in boxing history who has won titles in four traditional classes.

But he has not yet been an undisputed champion which is tough to do in this era of multiple sanctioning bodies. More importantly, he has never defeated an in-prime rival that appears to be his equal.

A win over Floyd Mayweather would remove all doubt. But will the fight be made? Can the fight be made? In the old forum I talked about how to avoid a fighter. 1) I will fight him...for $100 million dollars 2) I will fight him...in my hometown for an 80/20 split if I can choose the ref and the judges 3) I will fight him...if I can re-write the rules. That last one sound familiar?

In the last post, I talked about potential fights for him. On paper, the Martinez-Williams II winner appears to be the ultimate challenge until you closely examine their losses. They'd be favored on size alone, but they're both beatable. Let's see 112, 126, 135, 147 and 160? Five traditional weight classes? Gull durn!

Outside of those two matches, he can go after the winners of both Khan-Maidana AND Bradley-Alexander. Then if Berto-Mosley can get re-signed, he can fight that winner too. Would that be enough?

He'd be favored over any of the six of them. But will he be around that long and can he stay focused? His dedication to training was discussed in the news by Freddie Roach prior to the Margarito fight, but how much of that was real and how much was psychological warfare?


Last edited by dmille on Thu Nov 18, 2010 12:37 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Boxing.
PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 1:07 am 
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and if he loses to mayweather.... would that catapult jr into the all-time great conversation?


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 Post subject: Re: Boxing.
PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 3:05 am 
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George wrote:
and if he loses to mayweather.... would that catapult jr into the all-time great conversation?


Mayweather is in the same position as Manny. He has a great record, he has won great fights, he has beaten great fighters. He has won titles in multiple weight classes. But he too has never beaten an in-their-prime rival who appeared to be his equal. He has only ever faced one guy who looked like he had a equal chance on paper and that was his match-up with Diego Corrales.

He has two choices, face Manny or move up to 160 and face the winner of Martinez-Williams II. I prefer that he do both.

Otherwise, he can retire unbeaten but also unproven. Or he will eventually lose in a colossal upset. I think Floyd will end up like Jones and DeLaHoya. Fighters with great potential whose legacy is a notch or two below what their talent could have achieved for them...


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 Post subject: Re: Boxing.
PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 5:32 am 
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As far as Manny/Mayweather goes, could it be the case that the consequences of losing are so great that the management perceive the risk is not worth taking ? Or, are all the games just part of building up the interest (and money) for the big one.


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 Post subject: Re: Boxing.
PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 11:04 am 
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i'm guessing it's the former.
thanks for that answer, dmille


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 Post subject: Re: Boxing.
PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 1:13 pm 
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The Seeker wrote:
As far as Manny/Mayweather goes, could it be the case that the consequences of losing are so great that the management perceive the risk is not worth taking? Or, are all the games just part of building up the interest (and money) for the big one.


When the fight was 1st proposed, I said on the old forum that the fight would not take place. "I will fight him...so long as I can re-write the drug testing rules."

I mean we all know that "the Philippines has the best steroids". Manny's successful rise in weight couldn't have anything to do with proper diet due to eventually making some money and being able to hire a nutritionist. It's not like the Philippines is a third world country (What? It is?). And if you disagree with the Mayweathers, you're probably a racist who hates cute, cuddly puppies.

The last offer we saw was a minimum guarantee of $40 million a piece. Then after the fight, the percentages will be added up. You can add another $10-20 each to that after everything gets counted.

Right or wrong, the fans have put the burden on Floyd. He started at 130 and 160 is probably too big a step up. Andre Berto is good, but nobody knows who he is --- high risk, low reward.

Who else is out there for him other than Manny? Everyone else, north of 140 and south of 160, is damaged goods.

At first you can claim psychological warfare, after a while you have to consider fear.


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 Post subject: Re: Boxing
PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 11:19 pm 
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MY top ten lightweights of all-time plus honorable mention

1 Henry Armstrong
2 Roberto Duran
3 Benny Leonard
4 Joe Gans
5 Barney Ross
6 Pernell Whitaker
7 Tony Canzoneri
8 Alexis Arguello
9 Ike Williams
10 Joe Brown

Honorable mention: Lou Ambers, Jack Blackburn, Julio Cesar Chavez, Beau Jack, Ismael Laguna, Packey McFarland, Bob Montgomery, Shane Mosley, Carlos Ortiz, Aaron Pryor


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 Post subject: Re: Boxing.
PostPosted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 2:05 pm 
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"I’m just saying this right here, my concern is for my son’s protection. My concern is for my son’s life, that’s why. If my son’s fighting that little man [Pacquiao], I’m concerned about my son’s life. That’s what I’m telling you." Floyd Mayweather Sr.


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 Post subject: Re: Boxing.
PostPosted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 2:07 pm 
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Aren't those 2 estranged anyway?


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 Post subject: Re: Boxing
PostPosted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 2:41 pm 
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dmille wrote:
MY top ten lightweights of all-time plus honorable mention

1 Henry Armstrong
2 Roberto Duran
3 Benny Leonard
4 Joe Gans
5 Barney Ross
6 Pernell Whitaker
7 Tony Canzoneri
8 Alexis Arguello
9 Ike Williams
10 Joe Brown

Honorable mention: Lou Ambers, Jack Blackburn, Julio Cesar Chavez, Beau Jack, Ismael Laguna, Packey McFarland, Bob Montgomery, Shane Mosley, Carlos Ortiz, Aaron Pryor


Chavez was so great:



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 Post subject: Re: Boxing.
PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2010 11:41 pm 
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Sergio Martinez KO2 Paul Williams!!!!


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