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 Post subject: Re: DDD's Favourite Films
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 7:39 pm 
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pave wrote:
if you are gonna go "anti-nazi", have the balls to go all-out Inglourious Basterds style. implicate yourself in the blood-lust and accept that your hatred and lust for revenge makes you as morally bankrupt as those you hate. give me characters like the german soldier who died rather than be a traitor or the german soldier who just became a father who ended up caught up in a fight that he never asked to be a part of. and juxtapose that with american jews who felt righteous in avenging their people, even as they sold their souls every bit as much as the ones they felt justified in killing.

how is it that Tarantino's revenge porn can be more morally complex than Spielberg's "serious drama"?


Alright, I actually agree with this.

And if someone praises Schinder's List but calls IB morally despicable, I'd probably be the first person to call them out on it.

I'm not denying that SL was emotionally manipulative, but criticizing art for what I consider the most human characteristic ever just strikes me as fucking stupid.


Last edited by boo boo on Sun Jun 03, 2012 7:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: DDD's Favourite Films
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 7:41 pm 
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boo boo wrote:
IMO Saving Private Ryan has been the best of Spielberg's serious films, generally I'm not a fan of war movies with any trace of patriotism in it's message, but I think it's the one such film that works.


a war movie that has no trace of patriotism is one that ignores a defining aspect of war (in other words: its a useless one). patriotism plays a huge part in selling a war to the public, and questions of patriotism are at the heart of most soldiers that get caught up in them.

but maybe what you mean is you don't like when the movie itself is overly one-sided in its patriotism? for example, one that depicts the other country as the "bad guys"... in other words, the exact thing you were doing with Nazis a few seconds ago?


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 Post subject: Re: DDD's Favourite Films
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 7:44 pm 
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boo boo wrote:
pave wrote:
if you are gonna go "anti-nazi", have the balls to go all-out Inglourious Basterds style. implicate yourself in the blood-lust and accept that your hatred and lust for revenge makes you as morally bankrupt as those you hate. give me characters like the german soldier who died rather than be a traitor or the german soldier who just became a father who ended up caught up in a fight that he never asked to be a part of. and juxtapose that with american jews who felt righteous in avenging their people, even as they sold their souls every bit as much as the ones they felt justified in killing.

how is it that Tarantino's revenge porn can be more morally complex than Spielberg's "serious drama"?


Alright, I actually agree with this.

And if someone praises Schinder's List but calls IB morally despicable, I'd probably be the first person to call them out on it.


well IB is morally fucked if you believe that Tarantino sides with the Basterds. if you believe what i do, which is that he intentionally presented them like that to elicit cheers from the audience so that they would see the propaganda film towards the end of the movie and realize they got caught up in propaganda and revenge-lust themselves... then it's not morally despicable. but it depends on how much credit you give Tarantino. i give him more than most. specifically because of how he treats all three german soldiers that get focus (the one in the woods, the one in the bar, and the one who stars in the movie)


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 Post subject: Re: DDD's Favourite Films
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 7:46 pm 
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^btw, i say that because i too got caught up in anti-nazi sentimentality while watching it (if anyone remembers my initial response to that movie, which was "yeah fuck nazis" lol... thank goodness i made the realization that i did)




interesting side-note: the same thing happened in real life with the Osama Bin Laden killing and the aftermath of it.


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 Post subject: Re: DDD's Favourite Films
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 7:47 pm 
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pave wrote:
boo boo wrote:
IMO Saving Private Ryan has been the best of Spielberg's serious films, generally I'm not a fan of war movies with any trace of patriotism in it's message, but I think it's the one such film that works.


a war movie that has no trace of patriotism is one that ignores a defining aspect of war (in other words: its a useless one). patriotism plays a huge part in selling a war to the public, and questions of patriotism are at the heart of most soldiers that get caught up in them.

but maybe what you mean is you don't like when the movie itself is overly one-sided in its patriotism? for example, one that depicts the other country as the "bad guys"... in other words, the exact thing you were doing with Nazis a few seconds ago?


No, I'm just not a fan of glorifying the military, or nationalism. Respecting those who serve our country, well fuck yeah, that's all good. And I think that's all SPR set out to do.


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 Post subject: Re: DDD's Favourite Films
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 7:50 pm 
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A major problem I have with WWII films like Saving Private Ryan is that they don't address the differences between Nazis and Germans. Most German soldiers weren't Nazis. The majority of German forces defending Omaha beach weren't Nazis, a fair number weren't even German. So we have scenes like German troops being burnt alive in bunkers or shot dead after they surrendered without serious reflection on the morality of such actions and why they were carried out. It casts serious doubt on the moral seriousness of the film and, by extension, its director.


Last edited by Forgotten Son on Sun Jun 03, 2012 8:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: DDD's Favourite Films
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 7:56 pm 
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Ok. That's a valid criticism.


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 Post subject: Re: DDD's Favourite Films
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 8:01 pm 
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Forgotten Son wrote:
Dreww wrote:
Honestly Schindler is better than The Pianist imo for the reasons Sanjy gave a page or two back.


I couldn't disagree with Sanjy more. "It's not supposed to be realistic" is a mantra that could justify all sorts of negative stereotypes in all sorts of films. I don't care about Spielberg's influences; when you're making a drama about serious shit like the Holocaust, cheap emotional manipulation rubs me up the wrong way. Shit's dark enough without mustache-twirling villains.

I'm referring to this:

Sanjuro wrote:
PBR Streetgang wrote:
So what? Spielberg fucking hates Nazis. And with good reason. Sure, a film is perhaps slightly more realistic if it were to humanise the enemy and all that but I don't see why he should have done this in Schindler's List. It's not like the film makes even the slightest attempt at realism. I mean shit, it's shot in artsy black and white and the characters it chooses to focus on are such that the black and white nature of the film is a more than logical effect.


Have you even watched Schindler's List? It's about a war profiteer who initially does the right thing solely to make money, and when he turns good he's paired up with an anti-Semitic monster whose hatred of Jews is complicated by his intense desire for his Jewish mistress. Its heroes and villains are far, far more complex than The Pianist's.


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 Post subject: Re: DDD's Favourite Films
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 8:10 pm 
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Ah, got my users mixed up. It's been a while since I saw either film, but I'd be hesitant to describe Schindler's List's characters as more complex. From my memory of SL, the moral ambiguities of Schindler's war-profiteering aren't really brought up much, if at all and his shift from trying to make a few Reichsmarks to trying to save as many Jews as he can is far from smooth or well explained. I don't really see Goeth's hatred of Jews being complicated by his lust for Hirsch; it's the desire of a sexual predator.

I could be misremembering though. The only scenes I vividly remember from Schindler's List are the train arriving in Auschwitz - an awesome scene, one of the most chilling of any films I've seen - and the unpleasantly saccharine ending.


Last edited by Forgotten Son on Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: DDD's Favourite Films
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 8:24 pm 
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pave wrote:
^btw, i say that because i too got caught up in anti-nazi sentimentality while watching it (if anyone remembers my initial response to that movie, which was "yeah fuck nazis" lol... thank goodness i made the realization that i did)




interesting side-note: the same thing happened in real life with the Osama Bin Laden killing and the aftermath of it.

another thing about IB i noticed more this weekend was the baseball motif during the basterds' scenes. it's pretty obvious at times, like bear jew and his bat, and breaking stieglitz out of prison, but it pops up a lot more than that in more subtle ways. it's clever of tarantino to fuse the hypocritical, violent anti-nazi sentiment with america's pastime. i realized that's a big part of the reason i have so much fun watching their scenes and find it hard to feel guilty when they maim germans. it's pro-american propaganda that draws out and exploits the audience's anti-nazi sentiment and the hypocrisy inherent to principles simplistically built on good vs evil dichotomies that become synonymous with american vs nazi.


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 Post subject: Re: DDD's Favourite Films
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:10 am 
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Forgotten Son wrote:
The only scenes I vividly remember from Schindler's List are the train arriving in Auschwitz - and awesome scene, one of the most chilling of any films I've seen - and the unpleasantly saccharine ending.


What unpleasantly saccharine ending? Schindler's emotional breakdown or the modern setting ending?


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 Post subject: Re: DDD's Favourite Films
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:20 am 
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George wrote:
i'm just saying i'd like to see this fetish for nazi demonization gradually dialed down. hanging on to this too long becomes almost as bad as the atrocity itself.


That's absurd.


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 Post subject: Re: DDD's Favourite Films
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:26 am 
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boo boo wrote:
I mean I enjoy those films more. But Schindler's List is objectively better. Easily.


No movie is better than Jaws.


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 Post subject: Re: DDD's Favourite Films
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:30 am 
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Forgotten Son wrote:
From my memory of SL, the moral ambiguities of Schindler's war-profiteering aren't really brought up much, if at all and his shift from trying to make a few Reichsmarks to trying to save as many Jews as he can is far from smooth or well explained.


To me, that's the beauty of it. His change of heart isn't spelled out for the audience. We don't know his thoughts. We just observe his actions and figure it out ourselves as viewers.


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 Post subject: Re: DDD's Favourite Films
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:19 pm 
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ClashWho wrote:
Forgotten Son wrote:
The only scenes I vividly remember from Schindler's List are the train arriving in Auschwitz - and awesome scene, one of the most chilling of any films I've seen - and the unpleasantly saccharine ending.


What unpleasantly saccharine ending? Schindler's emotional breakdown or the modern setting ending?


Both.


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