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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists (under revision)
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2012 8:04 am 
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Brian wrote:
Negative Creep wrote:
Brian wrote:
Generally, it’s musical impact when an artist’s songs are recorded by other artists, because it’s a reaction from other artists to that artist, and it shows that other artists think that artist’s songs are good enough to record.


So would Guns 'N Roses covering Heartbreak Hotel in their early days score significant musical impact for Elvis?

Since Elvis has very high musical impact anyway, it wouldn't score significantly in proportion to his overall musical impact. The only question is whether it scores insignificantly or not at all. GnR was covering a song that he did, and that he made famous, but that he didn't write.


I would think that anyone doing a cover of "Heartbreak Hotel" is doing it because of Elvis Presley.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists (under revision)
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2012 8:27 am 
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Negative Creep wrote:
Bruce, you once posted a Bill Haley tune from 1952 that was rockabilly, I think in order to prove that Haley did it first.
Do you remember what song it was? I remember Clash really liked it...


I recall something like that, too, although I think it was a marriage of R&B and country, not necessarily rockabilly.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists (under revision)
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2012 8:28 am 
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Bruce wrote:
And even this has a piano break which would kill it as rockabilly for some real hard corers.


I'm with the purists on that one.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists (under revision)
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2012 9:14 am 
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Sampson wrote:
If that were the case then Presley would get enormous secondary influence for it instead. You can't say someone gets primary influence if they were the first and made it famous, but if they were not first they should get just as much credit anyway, otherwise you're crediting that person no matter what the evidence supports, which is subjective and the very thing that ruins lists. You need to start with set criteria and then stick with it, even if what you discover changes your view on things. That's the only fair way to do it.


Example:

First Marshall Stack - The Who. So they get the primary influence.

But they switched to Hi-Watt really early, so the enormous secondary influence belongs mostly to Jimi Hendrix and Cream.

Of course, none of this is discernable by listening to records.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists (under revision)
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2012 10:07 am 
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ClashWho wrote:
Negative Creep wrote:
Bruce, you once posted a Bill Haley tune from 1952 that was rockabilly, I think in order to prove that Haley did it first.
Do you remember what song it was? I remember Clash really liked it...


I recall something like that, too, although I think it was a marriage of R&B and country, not necessarily rockabilly.


Must have been this. It's got a steel guitar, but it's close. The guitar break is the same exact one used later on in "Rock Around The Clock." It also has a piano break.



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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists (under revision)
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2012 1:11 pm 
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Brett Alan wrote:
Sampson wrote:
Brett Alan wrote:
Beats me. I'm far from an expert on these things. But I'm sure someone made a record with just acoustic bass, lead guitar, and rhythm guitar before that. And even if I'm wrong--my point is, it doesn't matter. If we find such a record, it doesn't change the fact that it was Elvis who made that the standard. It was Elvis whom everyone else was influenced by.


If that were the case then Presley would get enormous secondary influence for it instead. You can't say someone gets primary influence if they were the first and made it famous, but if they were not first they should get just as much credit anyway, otherwise you're crediting that person no matter what the evidence supports, which is subjective and the very thing that ruins lists. You need to start with set criteria and then stick with it, even if what you discover changes your view on things. That's the only fair way to do it.

I think the problem remains that people want to have a list that SEEMS right and then finagle the criteria to support it rather than establish criteria and let the chips fall where they may.


I'm not trying to finagle any criteria. I'm not arguing for any particular result here. I'm just saying that I don't like your criteria. You're basing influence on who did it first, and your own stated reason for that is that it's hard to determine who actually had the influence. I think that's the wrong way to go about.

I think your way of doing it is much MORE subject to finagling. Right here we've been talking about different definitions of rockabilly. If we define it by instrumental lineup, then maybe Elvis made the first rockabilly record. If we define in terms of style, that it's a certain mix of R&B and country influences, then he didn't. Why should that matter, when the plain fact is that it was Elvis that defined what the style became and influenced the vast majority of those who followed?

And then there's Clash's point about live performances, which happens to be directly on point here. Johnny and Dorsey Burnette were performing with Paul Burlison by 1953, with exactly that instrumental lineup of lead guitar, rhythm guitar, and acoustic bass, with no other instruments (at least some of the time). So why does Elvis get "primary influence" because he was the first one to get it on record? Why should things be changed one iota if "You're Undecided" had been recorded before "That's All Right"? (Indeed, there seem to be some sources that claim that it was, although I gather that this is suspect.) Why is it that if you found a record made with that lineup in, say, Georgia, that you'd credit that for influence even if it was highly unlikely that Elvis had never heard it, but an artist Elvis was aware of in his hometown doesn't get credit for his live performances? We shouldn't be adjusting the criteria based on what's easy to verify.


I'm not saying the reason for assessing influence this way is because it's hard to determine who actually had the influence, I'm saying that things begin with an innovation and that starting point is the single more important moment, since without it nothing that it influenced later would even exist. How is that hard to comprehend? But of course there are often going to be later steps that have more VISIBLE influence which allows it to get wider exposure, recognition and acclaim and thus that would get HUGE secondary influence, particularly if it were all attributible to one artist.

Let's say Presley wasn't first in doing rockabilly and we could actually authenticate an earlier example. Fine, give that obscure group from Georgia all the primary influence if they did it first. What will that mean here? Not a whole helluva lot. They'll get it, they'll earn it and it will be a nice footnote in rock history. But the entire secondary influence that brought dozens, if not hundreds, of white would be rockabilly cats into southern studios in the mid-50's will go to Elvis Presley. His standing overall will still be impacted far more by that secondary influence, even though it'd technically be slightly less than the obscure primary influence by this unknown, unheard of, originators. In other words, we're not trying to simply find each starting point and saying that's all that matters, we're trying to pinpoint influence for all of the artists in rock history accurately. If that means someone gets secondary rather than primary, but that secondary is still enormous then it will be reflected in the overall rankings. That Georgia group would never make this list if we stretched it to 5,000 Greatest Artists, even with that primary influence. But guys like Presley, Carl Perkins, Johnny Burnette, etc., would be helped with the secondary influence because they have other things going for them in the rest of the criteria.

It's about historical accuracy first and foremost, and about properly crediting which things caused an innovation to take hold and spread. Sometimes that will be years later and those artists will get full credit for that secondary influence which will be substantial, but it is a different achievement than the original invention of something, that's all.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists (under revision)
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2012 1:41 pm 
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Sampson wrote:
It's about historical accuracy first and foremost, and about properly crediting which things caused an innovation to take hold and spread. Sometimes that will be years later and those artists will get full credit for that secondary influence which will be substantial, but it is a different achievement than the original invention of something, that's all.


Doesn't change Clash's point that the primary influence was often from a live performance rather than a record.

Dave Ran Ronk had never recorded his arrangement of "House Of The Rising Sun" prior to Dylan stealing it even when Van Ronk told him no when Bob asked him if it was okay. Obviously Bob knew the arrangement from hearing Ran Ronk perform it live.

Esquerita had never recorded until the later 50s, but was still a big influence on Little Richard due to his live shows.

Elvis heard "Hound Dog" by Freddie Bell at a live show in Vegas, not from the record.

Muddy Waters stole "Got My Mojo Working" when he toured with Ann Cole in late 1956 and heard her do the song live very night, even though she had not yet recorded it.

MOST legendary songs were performed live by the artists before they ever did them on a record. Simon and Garfunkel were doing "Bridge" live already in 1969.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists (under revision)
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2012 1:49 pm 
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Bruce wrote:
Simon and Garfunkel were doing "Bridge" live already in 1969.


Speaking of which, the idea for the chorus came from this 1958 gospel classic. Near the end Rev. Jeter says "I'll be your bridge over deep waters."



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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists (under revision)
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2012 3:16 pm 
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Bruce wrote:
MOST legendary songs were performed live by the artists before they ever did them on a record.




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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists (under revision)
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2012 3:17 pm 
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Bruce wrote:
The hand claps on "Hound Dog" by Elvis are annoying, but I don't know if there's anything earlier that has them.


I'm looking. This was only a month later:



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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists (under revision)
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2012 3:21 pm 
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Bruce wrote:
ClashWho wrote:
Negative Creep wrote:
Bruce, you once posted a Bill Haley tune from 1952 that was rockabilly, I think in order to prove that Haley did it first.
Do you remember what song it was? I remember Clash really liked it...


I recall something like that, too, although I think it was a marriage of R&B and country, not necessarily rockabilly.


Must have been this. It's got a steel guitar, but it's close. The guitar break is the same exact one used later on in "Rock Around The Clock." It also has a piano break.



LOVE IT.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists (under revision)
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2012 3:24 pm 
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ClashWho wrote:
Bruce wrote:
ClashWho wrote:
Negative Creep wrote:
Bruce, you once posted a Bill Haley tune from 1952 that was rockabilly, I think in order to prove that Haley did it first.
Do you remember what song it was? I remember Clash really liked it...


I recall something like that, too, although I think it was a marriage of R&B and country, not necessarily rockabilly.


Must have been this. It's got a steel guitar, but it's close. The guitar break is the same exact one used later on in "Rock Around The Clock." It also has a piano break.



LOVE IT.


Me too. it's in my top 25 for 1952:

MY TOP 100 RECORDINGS FROM 1952:
1 ¦ Gumbo Blues ¦ Smiley Lewis
2 ¦ Have Mercy Baby ¦ Dominoes
3 ¦ Honky Tonk Blues ¦ Hank Williams
4 ¦ Lawdy Miss Clawdy ¦ Lloyd Price
5 ¦ Your Daddy's Dogging Around ¦ Todd Rhodes w/ Connie Allen
6 ¦ Good Bread Alley ¦ Eddie "Cleanhead" Vinson
7 ¦ K.C. Loving ¦ Little Willie Littlefield
8 ¦ Ain't Nothing Happening ¦ Little Richard
9 ¦ Rocket 69 ¦ Todd Rhodes w/ Connie Allen
10 ¦ Aged And Mellow ¦ Little Esther
11 ¦ I Don't Know ¦ Willie Mabon
12 ¦ I Brought It All On Myself ¦ Little Richard
13 ¦ One Mint Julep ¦ Clovers
14 ¦ Jambalaya ¦ Hank Williams
15 ¦ Courage To Love ¦ Five Royales
16 ¦ Mr. Highway Man (Sun alternate) ¦ Howlin' Wolf
17 ¦ I'd Be Satisfied ¦ Dominoes
18 ¦ Last Of The Good Rockin' Men ¦ Four Jacks
19 ¦ Beside You ¦ Swallows
20 ¦ Red Sails In The Sunset ¦ Five Keys
21 ¦ I Can't Lose With The Stuff I Use ¦ Lester Williams
22 ¦ Rock The Joint ¦ Bill Haley & the Comets
23 ¦ Ting-A-Ling ¦ Clovers
24 ¦ I Believe ¦ Elmore James
25 ¦ I'll Never Get Out Of This World Alive ¦ Hank Williams
26 ¦ That's What You're Doing To Me ¦ Dominoes
27 ¦ Serve Another Round ¦ Five Keys
28 ¦ Baby, Don't Do It ¦ Five Royales
29 ¦ It's So Peaceful ¦ Smiley Lewis
30 ¦ Goin' Home ¦ Fats Domino
31 ¦ Saturday Night Daddy ¦ Little Esther
32 ¦ I've Got The Last Laugh Now ¦ Roy Brown
33 ¦ Get Rich Quick ¦ Little Richard
34 ¦ 5-10-15 Hours ¦ Ruth Brown
35 ¦ Dream Girl ¦ Jesse & Marvin
36 ¦ She Rocks ¦ Cardinals
37 ¦ Roll Mr. Jelly ¦ Amos Milburn
38 ¦ Rocking On Sunday Night ¦ Treniers
39 ¦ Take All Of Me ¦ Five Royales
40 ¦ I Held My Baby Last Night ¦ Elmore James
41 ¦ Street Walking Woman ¦ T-Bone Walker
42 ¦ Lillie Mae ¦ Smiley Lewis
43 ¦ The Walkin' Blues ¦ Jesse Powell (Fluffy Hunter)
44 ¦ The Bump ¦ Cardinals
45 ¦ No More Doggin' ¦ Rosco Gordon
46 ¦ Please Baby Please ¦ Swallows
47 ¦ Working For My Baby ¦ H-Bomb Ferguson
48 ¦ I Only Have Eyes For You ¦ Swallows
49 ¦ I Played The Fool ¦ Clovers
50 ¦ Yes Indeed (unreleased master) ¦ Orioles with Moms Mabley
51 ¦ Oh, Oh, Oh Baby ¦ Checkers
52 ¦ Bring It Back ¦ Wynonie Harris
53 ¦ See See Rider ¦ Orioles
54 ¦ Keep On Churnin' ¦ Wynonie Harris
55 ¦ You Win Again ¦ Hank Williams
56 ¦ Hey Miss Fannie ¦ Clovers
57 ¦ Bad News Baby ¦ Wynonie Harris
58 ¦ So Much Trouble ¦ Brownie McGhee & Sonny Terry
59 ¦ Settin' The Woods On Fire ¦ Hank Williams
60 ¦ Where Were You ¦ Smiley Lewis
61 ¦ Reeling And Rocking ¦ Fats Domino
62 ¦ I'll Be Gone ¦ Fats Domino
63 ¦ Follow The Rule ¦ Johnny Ace
64 ¦ Getting Tired, Tired, Tired ¦ Orioles
65 ¦ Middle Of The Night ¦ Clovers
66 ¦ Mailman Blues ¦ Lloyd Price
67 ¦ All Night Long ¦ Royals (with Wynonie Harris)
68 ¦ Can't Do Sixty No More ¦ Du Droppers
69 ¦ My Song ¦ Johnny Ace
70 ¦ Nine Below Zero ¦ Sonny Boy Williamson
71 ¦ You're Part Of Me ¦ Four Buddies
72 ¦ I'll Drown In My Tears ¦ Sonny Thompson (Lula Reed)
73 ¦ The Wolf Is At Your Door ¦ Howlin' Wolf
74 ¦ The Bells Are Ringing ¦ Smiley Lewis
75 ¦ It Ain't Gonna Be Like That ¦ Orioles (unreleased master)
76 ¦ Blackberry Boogie ¦ Tennessee Ernie Ford
77 ¦ New Blowtop Blues ¦ Dinah Washington
78 ¦ C.V. Wine Blues ¦ Howlin' Wolf (unreleased master)
79 ¦ Forgive Me Baby ¦ Elmo Nixon (Henry Hayes Orchestra)
80 ¦ I'm Gone ¦ Shirley & Lee
81 ¦ Oooh-Oooh-Oooh ¦ Lloyd Price
82 ¦ Mainliner ¦ Little Esther & Robins
83 ¦ Yes Sir That's My Baby ¦ Five Keys
84 ¦ You Know I Know ¦ Five Royales
85 ¦ Shake It Up And Go ¦ B.B. King
86 ¦ Howlin' Wolf Boogie ¦ Howlin' Wolf
87 ¦ Stormy Weather ¦ Five Sharps
88 ¦ Restless Heart ¦ Lloyd Price
89 ¦ She Moves Me ¦ Muddy Waters
90 ¦ Don't Cry Baby ¦ Orioles
91 ¦ A Beggar For Your Kisses ¦ Diamonds
92 ¦ Rhythm Rockin' Boogie ¦ John Lee
93 ¦ All Night Long ¦ Muddy Waters
94 ¦ Barfly ¦ Orioles
95 ¦ In The Alley ¦ Dave Bartholomew
96 ¦ Night Train ¦ Jimmy Forrest
97 ¦ Every Beat Of My Heart ¦ Royals
98 ¦ You Know I Love You ¦ B.B. King
99 ¦ Flame In My Heart ¦ Checkers
100 ¦ You Belong To Me ¦ Orioles

BUBBLING UNDER FROM 1952:
101 ¦ I Ain't Gonna Cry For You (unreleased master) ¦ Dominoes
102 ¦ Mr. Low Love ¦ Terry Timmons
103 ¦ Rockin' With Fes ¦ Roy Byrd
104 ¦ Night's Curtains ¦ Checkers
105 ¦ Let's Party ¦ Jesse Allen
106 ¦ Dance With A Dolly ¦ Bill Haley & Comets
107 ¦ Nothin' Shakin' Baby ¦ Four Buddies (unreleased master)
108 ¦ I'm Gonna Put You Down ¦ Tampa Red
109 ¦ Sundown Boogie ¦ Bill Haley & Comets
110 ¦ Five Long Years ¦ Eddie Boyd
111 ¦ Moonrise ¦ Royals


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists (under revision)
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2012 5:02 pm 
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Sampson wrote:

I'm not saying the reason for assessing influence this way is because it's hard to determine who actually had the influence, I'm saying that things begin with an innovation and that starting point is the single more important moment, since without it nothing that it influenced later would even exist. How is that hard to comprehend?


I understand it just fine. I just don't agree. It's a fascinating bit of history to try to ascertain what was the first use of feedback on a record, for example, but there's absolutely no reason to think that without it, no one else would have used it. We can arrive at a definition of rockabilly and then see whether "Rock This Joint" or "That's All Right" or something else was the first one to meet it, but that doesn't necessarily tell you anything important about the evolution of the music.

Sampson wrote:
Let's say Presley wasn't first in doing rockabilly and we could actually authenticate an earlier example. Fine, give that obscure group from Georgia all the primary influence if they did it first. What will that mean here? Not a whole helluva lot. They'll get it, they'll earn it and it will be a nice footnote in rock history. But the entire secondary influence that brought dozens, if not hundreds, of white would be rockabilly cats into southern studios in the mid-50's will go to Elvis Presley. His standing overall will still be impacted far more by that secondary influence, even though it'd technically be slightly less than the obscure primary influence by this unknown, unheard of, originators.


I don't know, maybe I'm overstating the importance you're placing on this. I just don't see anything secondary about it.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists (under revision)
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2012 5:18 pm 
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Brett Alan wrote:
I don't know, maybe I'm overstating the importance you're placing on this. I just don't see anything secondary about it.


There was a time when primary influence was all Sampson cared about. I remember saying way back in the bulletin board days of DDD that instrument destruction was part of The Who's influence on live rock concerts and Sampson saying that all of the credit for that goes to Jerry Lee Lewis because he was first.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Artists (under revision)
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2012 5:38 pm 
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I think you guys might be emphasizing the words "primary" and "secondary" a bit too much, maybe that's where we're having a falling out. It's just a progression thing though. Someone's gotta be first to do something, someone's gotta be second, third and so forth. It's not a put-down or somehow downplaying their role, it's just a distinction made on a chronological basis.

When charting the evolution of things that's just how you do it. The first documented example of something happening intrinsically means more, because we can't ASSUME someone else would've done it. In most cases, yeah, someone else would've come up with it, but that's still hypothetical, we can't re-write what happened, we have to chart it accurately. Unfortunately most rock history fails to do this, instead selecting widely known moments and figures and ignoring the rest, simply because it's easier and more palatable to their readers/listeners, etc. But doing it this way doesn't mean the second or third person to do something important weren't deserving of credit too, it's just a slightly different credit we're giving based on different factors (spreading the usage rather than inventing it).

In terms of live stuff, absolutely it matters and is treated the same - primary and secondary.


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