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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Bass Guitarists
PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2012 8:40 am 
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Ssoyd wrote:
StuBass wrote:
Ssoyd wrote:
StuBass wrote:

Completely agree on "importance" Ssoyd, however, since Jaco...there really have been few new innovations on bass...save some electronics and other artificial means experimented by guys like Bootsy for example. So long as there are a finite number of strings and frets, innovation is at the mercy of advancements in the overall genre. Otherwise...it's largely playing the same notes and timings...just in a different order, in different places. In other words...not much changing but the changes. The real advancements therefore are somewhat limited to the technical skill of a given player and perhaps versatility. Innovation and impact appears to hark back to the earlier generations IMO.


I have to agree 100% except that the # of strings and frets don't limit the possibilities (after all adding more only allows you to play more octaves) as much as the Western 12 tone system Rock music is based on which of course determines the position of the frets. Statistically there are 479,001,600 different combinations with 12 notes but you are further limited by what key you are playing in and what particular chord is being played at the moment as well as what the next chord will be in the progression. I play fretless but I'm still limited to what people will accept as sounding "good" so all those positions in between where the frets would fall are considered "wrong" if they aren't compatible with everybody else's tuning.

Now throw in the rhythm and the way the player decides to play around with it. Jamerson's main contribution IMO was actually more in the way he used syncopation and cut time than the actual notes he played. Jamerson was a Jazz player so I think that his introduction of cut time and syncopation, both common in Jazz, was his main contribution to Rock Bass.

Frets are like a sidewalk...they keep you on a clear and definitive path. Fretless is like walking down a dusty road... :surprised:


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Bass Guitarists
PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2012 9:31 am 
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Just learned that Bob Babbitt is currently in the hospital dealing with complications related to the brain tumor he was diagnosed with about a year ago. Please join me in wishing Babbitt a speedy recovery and a return to good health. He had been doing pretty well and hopefully this is just a minor setback.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Bass Guitarists
PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2012 4:33 pm 
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God bless him.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Bass Guitarists
PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2012 11:40 pm 
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Poor Bob :sad:

Thx for the news StuBass, I'm a big believer in the spiritual power of well wishes and prayer. I'll play some non-Jamerson What's Going On for him tonight...


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Bass Guitarists
PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 12:21 am 
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Holy Fuck...I just heard that Donald "Duck" Dunn has passed away. WHAT'S GOING ON???

Coconut and Ariel...Thanks for your well wishes on behalf of Babbitt...


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Bass Guitarists
PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 2:31 am 
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Ariel,
I have to disagree. I really don't think Lesh takes Casady in creativity. Imo, its not even close.
Lesh has an awesome jazzy improv style that fits great with the Dead's music, but he doesn't really step out of his comfort zone too often.
That live Casady solo I posted is monstrous, far more daring and imaginative than anything I've heard from Phil.
Casady is clearly more skilled as well, and I really think he should be above Lesh, even though they should obviously be listed right next to each other.

Here's another one for Jack's creativity...



Last edited by Negative Creep on Sun May 13, 2012 3:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Bass Guitarists
PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 3:00 am 
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StuBass wrote:
Holy Fuck...I just heard that Donald "Duck" Dunn has passed away. WHAT'S GOING ON???

Coconut and Ariel...Thanks for your well wishes on behalf of Babbitt...



http://ultimateclassicrock.com/legendar ... at-age-70/

Well that came out of freakin' nowhere. Holy shit.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Bass Guitarists
PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 10:07 am 
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Terrible news, very sad. Blues Brothers is the one movie I've watched more than any other, and I grew up with Booker T and the MG's on the stereo. We've lost a true legend.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Bass Guitarists
PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 7:58 pm 
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Rest in Peace. A true giant of bass. God bless


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Bass Guitarists
PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 8:40 pm 
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D.J. wrote:
One last thing about this, maybe Deacon and Hamm could switch and we really need more opinions about Burton's ranking, I don't see many people agreeing with it.


Reg. Burton, this is one of those rare cases where many of the opinions on this subforum actually don't seem to mesh with the general opinion. I've seen many threads on Burton on talkbass and a lot of reverence for him there. Not to mention the Bass Player mag cover story from 2005 (2006?), high ranking in the "Bassist of the Millennium" reader's poll (he was in the top 10 I think), the musicradar.com best rock bassists readers poll, etc. Granted probably 70% of the voters on these readers polls for non bass centric magazines/websites don't know shit (as evinced by Myung's embarrassing #1 spot on the musicradar poll), but still, it shows people, from the general public (readers polls) to bass players/enthusiasts (Bass Player magazine, lots of people on talkbass), think he's really something. Add to that the enormous respect and acclaim he gets from the top metal bassists since his time. And also the allmusic writeup on him which is also very complimentary. He's really a revered player and if you polled metalheads and metal bassists on the topic of great/talented metal bassists he'd be a near shoe in for #1.

Also Neg at least gets him, heh. Ssoyd's admitted his issue with him is in part a distaste for the use of bass effects, which is totally fair but a subjective thing that doesn't mean there's anything wrong with Burton.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Bass Guitarists
PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 8:40 pm 
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As far as Deaky/Stu...

BY THE CRITERIA:

Influence:
Bleh, could go either way depending on how you look at it. To be entirely honest I think Stu takes it though.

Winner: Stu but fairly close

Innovation:
Deaky gets points here for continuing to develop and make prominent the Macca style (i.e. subtle melodic touches/'melodic' playing thru the use of harmonic counterpoint and lots of feel in note plucking)...he was Macca's main acolyte in the next (post Beatles) generation of famous bassists I think. He also refined that style and took it in his own direction. In addition he was one of the first very versatile rock bassists. Some points also need to given for "Another One Bites the Dust" helping define and solidify a certain style/approach to rock bass in a very influential way.

Stu gets points here for being one of the 'big 3' contemporary shredder style guys who helped bring that style to rock and show/develop how it could work in a rock setting (the shredder style was really a further development on fusion guys like Jaco and Clarke, more than anything else), and also for helping to bring to prominence the multiple melodic voices bass solo. He also helped further develop tapping. Important in helping innovate the unaccompanied bass solo, and in helping invent and define the rock 'virtuoso' player style.

Winner: Again, Stu but fairly close

Creativity:
Deacon wins this one. It's not debatable.

Winner: Deaky, but Stu is still very good

Versatility:
I don't know Queen well enough to assess Deaky's versatility, but a hunch says Stu wins for being the king of unaccompanied rock bass solo/multiple melodic voice rock bass solo, uses tapping as its own distinct style, good slapper, has played both shred rock and jazz fusion a great deal, plus bass-centric albums of his own.

Winner: I'm pretty sure it's Stu, but Deaky's still good

Skill:
Stu wins by a lot here, but Deaky's still pretty good, it's not close between these two though.

Winner: Stu easily but Deaky's nothing to scoff at.

So by the criteria it's two small wins for Stu, a significant but not huge win for Stu, a solid and notable win for Deacon and a big win for Stu. I admit I simply don't know Queen that well though so I could be misjudging a lot of this.

NOW, throw in intangibles/notable points...

Deacon:
Kept the Macca style alive and refined it further. One of the first very versatile rock bassists. Very distinctive and identifiable style, a ridiculous amount of creativity (top 10 ever in rock easily). A true musician's musician on the bass with a ridiculous amount of subtlety and finesse, and a very deep well of phrases to draw from: in rock one of the top 'bass musician-as-artist' guys. Played in one of the biggest bands ever, very heard and therefore considerably influential (in addition to influence in helping keep the Macca style alive and keeping it prominent). Literally every Deacon performance is a masterpiece, which you can say about only a few rock guys, he's ALWAYS inventive, subtle and brilliant. Mastery of using the bass as a countermelodic/counterharmonic instrument in rock second to none and tied with Macca, Flea and Jamerson for first place. Huge amount of great bass lines, but also helped popularize/invent/define the rock bass solo/'up front playing' style. Personality wise, up there with JPJ as THE guy who defined the rock bassist's stereotypical personality. One member of one of the elite instrumental ensembles in rock's history in terms of all members being brilliant musicians, and held his own with May which is saying a lot. Bass parts equally important compositionally in Queen songs as vocal, guitar or drum parts. Also, has one of the greatest basslines ever to his name, and one of the most influential and important ever (Another One Bites the Dust). Helped show the world the bassist can be equally important to a great band as any other member, both in terms of the sound of the band/its songs AND as a songwriter.

Hamm:
With Wooten and Sheehan: greatest and most visible, famous and important contemporary shredder style bassists, more responsible for bringing that style to prominence and fame than anyone else. In doing so helped bring fusion bass virtuoso influences/style to rock, which is important. One of those guys who has been very influential to rock bassists in being a 'gateway drug' to discover the fusion bassists of the 70s and 80s he and the other shredder style guys built upon: Clarke, Jaco, etc. One of the top 'multigenre' (rock and fusion) bassists ever, helped popularize that trend. Perhaps the greatest ever in rock at the unaccompanied bass solo as a composition. Like Deacon, one of the top bass musician-as-artist icons in rock. Highly creative and highly renowned for his creativity. Huge figure in advancing, defining and popularizing the tapping style on the electric bass. Within rock, maybe the greatest and most influential multiple-melodic-voices soloist, maybe the player most responsible for popularizing that style in rock (also helped invent that style in general). Helped define the possibilites of the bass as a fully fledged, versatile instrument, from chordal playing to tapping, slapping (different timbres and styles), and obviously fingerstyle. Bass icon.

In the end I reckon Hamm wins by the criteria, and his win becomes even more solid and concrete when we take what I call intangibles into account. BUT, consider Deacon's spot pending: it's not definite. I need to buy and really immerse myself in Queen's discography, and it's possible he'll move up when I do. His spot is basically a placeholder spot for him for now.

Consolation: Deacon would easily be top 10 in creativity ever and very possibly top 5. Hamm would be top 20. They're not really close in creativity. Even if I'm right that Hamm is 'greater', Deacon's still better, has a more distinctive, subtle and refined style which is harder to imitate (actually it's impossible to accurately imitate), he's a creativity god. He's a deeper musician with a deeper musical soul.

Oh and don't forget I raised Deacon like 5-10 spots from where he was before I took over haha


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Bass Guitarists
PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 8:47 pm 
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What do y'all think about my proposed 25-29 people?


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Bass Guitarists
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 12:38 am 
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Ariel wrote:
What do y'all think about my proposed 25-29 people?


Keep on keeping on!


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Bass Guitarists
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 1:23 am 
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Ariel wrote:
I don't know Queen well enough to assess Deaky's versatility


Well I do know that Queen flirted with just about every stylistic element you could think of:

Metal (Gimme The Prize, Dead On Time, Let Me Entertain You, etc.)
R&B (Cool Cat, One Year Of Love)
Jazz (My Melancholy Blues)
Pop (Delilah)
Vaudeville (Lazing On A Suday Afternoon)
Middle Eastern melodies (Mustapha)
Long epics (The Prophet's Song, Bo Rhap)
Short anthems (We Will Rock You/WatC)

Plus other weird things that I can't even categorize like "March Of The Black Queen" and "Seaside Rendezvous".

Now, I'm not sure how much Deacon changed his style around to fit all of those, but it's definitely worth looking into.
Queen were absolutely fearless when it comes to experimenting with different styles and sounds. They might even surpass the Beatles in this area, imo...

Also, do you have an opinion on my above post regarding Casady/Lesh?


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Bass Guitarists
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 2:54 am 
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Ariel wrote:
As far as Deaky/Stu...

BY THE CRITERIA:

Influence:
Bleh, could go either way depending on how you look at it. To be entirely honest I think Stu takes it though.

Winner: Stu but fairly close

Innovation:
Deaky gets points here for continuing to develop and make prominent the Macca style (i.e. subtle melodic touches/'melodic' playing thru the use of harmonic counterpoint and lots of feel in note plucking)...he was Macca's main acolyte in the next (post Beatles) generation of famous bassists I think. He also refined that style and took it in his own direction. In addition he was one of the first very versatile rock bassists. Some points also need to given for "Another One Bites the Dust" helping define and solidify a certain style/approach to rock bass in a very influential way.

Stu gets points here for being one of the 'big 3' contemporary shredder style guys who helped bring that style to rock and show/develop how it could work in a rock setting (the shredder style was really a further development on fusion guys like Jaco and Clarke, more than anything else), and also for helping to bring to prominence the multiple melodic voices bass solo. He also helped further develop tapping. Important in helping innovate the unaccompanied bass solo, and in helping invent and define the rock 'virtuoso' player style.

Winner: Again, Stu but fairly close

Creativity:
Deacon wins this one. It's not debatable.

Winner: Deaky, but Stu is still very good

Versatility:
I don't know Queen well enough to assess Deaky's versatility, but a hunch says Stu wins for being the king of unaccompanied rock bass solo/multiple melodic voice rock bass solo, uses tapping as its own distinct style, good slapper, has played both shred rock and jazz fusion a great deal, plus bass-centric albums of his own.

Winner: I'm pretty sure it's Stu, but Deaky's still good

Skill:
Stu wins by a lot here, but Deaky's still pretty good, it's not close between these two though.

Winner: Stu easily but Deaky's nothing to scoff at.

So by the criteria it's two small wins for Stu, a significant but not huge win for Stu, a solid and notable win for Deacon and a big win for Stu. I admit I simply don't know Queen that well though so I could be misjudging a lot of this.

NOW, throw in intangibles/notable points...

Deacon:
Kept the Macca style alive and refined it further. One of the first very versatile rock bassists. Very distinctive and identifiable style, a ridiculous amount of creativity (top 10 ever in rock easily). A true musician's musician on the bass with a ridiculous amount of subtlety and finesse, and a very deep well of phrases to draw from: in rock one of the top 'bass musician-as-artist' guys. Played in one of the biggest bands ever, very heard and therefore considerably influential (in addition to influence in helping keep the Macca style alive and keeping it prominent). Literally every Deacon performance is a masterpiece, which you can say about only a few rock guys, he's ALWAYS inventive, subtle and brilliant. Mastery of using the bass as a countermelodic/counterharmonic instrument in rock second to none and tied with Macca, Flea and Jamerson for first place. Huge amount of great bass lines, but also helped popularize/invent/define the rock bass solo/'up front playing' style. Personality wise, up there with JPJ as THE guy who defined the rock bassist's stereotypical personality. One member of one of the elite instrumental ensembles in rock's history in terms of all members being brilliant musicians, and held his own with May which is saying a lot. Bass parts equally important compositionally in Queen songs as vocal, guitar or drum parts. Also, has one of the greatest basslines ever to his name, and one of the most influential and important ever (Another One Bites the Dust). Helped show the world the bassist can be equally important to a great band as any other member, both in terms of the sound of the band/its songs AND as a songwriter.

Hamm:
With Wooten and Sheehan: greatest and most visible, famous and important contemporary shredder style bassists, more responsible for bringing that style to prominence and fame than anyone else. In doing so helped bring fusion bass virtuoso influences/style to rock, which is important. One of those guys who has been very influential to rock bassists in being a 'gateway drug' to discover the fusion bassists of the 70s and 80s he and the other shredder style guys built upon: Clarke, Jaco, etc. One of the top 'multigenre' (rock and fusion) bassists ever, helped popularize that trend. Perhaps the greatest ever in rock at the unaccompanied bass solo as a composition. Like Deacon, one of the top bass musician-as-artist icons in rock. Highly creative and highly renowned for his creativity. Huge figure in advancing, defining and popularizing the tapping style on the electric bass. Within rock, maybe the greatest and most influential multiple-melodic-voices soloist, maybe the player most responsible for popularizing that style in rock (also helped invent that style in general). Helped define the possibilites of the bass as a fully fledged, versatile instrument, from chordal playing to tapping, slapping (different timbres and styles), and obviously fingerstyle. Bass icon.

In the end I reckon Hamm wins by the criteria, and his win becomes even more solid and concrete when we take what I call intangibles into account. BUT, consider Deacon's spot pending: it's not definite. I need to buy and really immerse myself in Queen's discography, and it's possible he'll move up when I do. His spot is basically a placeholder spot for him for now.

Consolation: Deacon would easily be top 10 in creativity ever and very possibly top 5. Hamm would be top 20. They're not really close in creativity. Even if I'm right that Hamm is 'greater', Deacon's still better, has a more distinctive, subtle and refined style which is harder to imitate (actually it's impossible to accurately imitate), he's a creativity god. He's a deeper musician with a deeper musical soul.

Oh and don't forget I raised Deacon like 5-10 spots from where he was before I took over haha


Great post Ariel, thanks.


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