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 Post subject: Re: state your unpopular opinions as facts
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 8:55 pm 
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Hang wrote:
batman wrote:
Nah, it was just a two year phase that began when I heard Led Zeppelin for the first time at age 13. The phase was over around age 15. Before I was 13 I was into pop and hip hop and rock and other stuff, I just kind of stopped listening to all of it (except rock) when I was 13.

A lot of people on DDD speak about this musical "evolution" they supposedly go through, where their taste follows a linear path closer to some mystical point of musical enlightenment. But I don't think that's necessarily true. I guess hopefully you have a better understanding of how music works as time goes on, but taste is not necessarily a linear path. I can say without a doubt that I was more open-minded with my taste as a 10 year old than a 14 year old.


For sure. I'm more embarrassed of myself as a music fan as a 14 year old than I am as a 8 year old when I asked for and received No Strings Attached by Nsync for Christmas - not because of the music I listened to but because of the way I acted when I thought Metallica were the height of music. I was a cunt.


I was pretty much an asshole to anyone who didn't like hard rock or heavy metal when I was about 18. But then again I was pretty much just an asshole when I was 18.


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 Post subject: Re: state your unpopular opinions as facts
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 12:05 am 
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Celebrity is a monumental pop album, "Pop" is one of the best songs of my lifetime, and it should be treated more like Justin Timberlake's solo albums than the first couple NSYNC albums.

also NSYNC imo had the most musical growth of any artist ive ever seen in just 3 albums. their first album is an awful, awful bland and annoying throw-away filled with watered down teen dance pop ballads with no hint of individuality or charisma. even the Max Martin songs on it feel like he wrote them in 5 minutes. the second album is a huge jump forward with some quality singles and at least one member (JT) shining as a charismatic performer. and the third album is one of the best of its subgenre and basically gave us pre-solo career JT in peak form.

and not liking "Pop" is far more gay than anything i just wrote.


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 Post subject: Re: state your unpopular opinions as facts
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 12:20 am 
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Forgotten Son wrote:
batman wrote:
That was the album that broke me out of my "every song needs a bitchin' guitar solo" phase.


Ah I remember that phase. I don't know where it came from, really, because I was a fan of classic rock before I adopted that frame of mind and I didn't really notice the guitar solos. It seemed inconsistently applied too, given that Electric Six were one of my favourite bands at the time and the majority of their songs were sans solos. I properly snapped out of in late '06 early '07 when I started listening to bands like Stars.

I still loves me a bitchin' guitar solo, though.


Incidentally, Stars played a big role in my hyperbolic "no songs can have bitchin' guitar solos" quasi-phase


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 Post subject: Re: state your unpopular opinions as facts
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 8:37 am 
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corrections wrote:
It isn't a circular definition that he's giving so much as reductive (i.e. not high cultural). The reason I think you definition fails is that it ignores popular music in most of music history. While this would often be called folk music I think there is certain stuff that was regionally very popular and did not require a middle class to consume it or indeed that the artist make very much at all. This music was literally popular but did not require a middle class. Conversely the more useful definition in my view is the stylistic one. Music emerging not from higher cultural trends (so called art music) but from the people generally (folk music) and those things that are derivative from it. The popular music you speak of is music that comes from these roots (and very specifically southern poor black roots and to a lesser extent southern poor white roots). This stuff is popular music regardless of whether it is actually popular in and of itself. In order for it to be widely disseminated I'll grant you a middle class is required (or at least a class with disposable income).


I'm not saying the music has to be purchased by some certain amount of people to qualify as pop. I didn't think I had to spell out the element of intent. Folk musicians from times gone past had no intent of being sustained by performing music and did not view their listeners as customers. I'm sure we could go through the history of street performance and find intent and call it pop music. But even then, without a fixed venue for consumption, there still is a very limited "pop culture."

Now, second, you say "the more useful definition is the stylistic one." Stylistic, as in, the aesthetic definition? Because I hardly see how you could argue that an aesthetic definition is more useful than an economic one. That's a baffling assertion.

Contrary to your claims, the pop music I speak of comes from BOTH folk roots AND elite roots. It's the mixing and constant remixing of both, which occurs because of the money involved. And so that gives us three broad genres. Obviously you will still be able to go and find artists that straddle the lines, but there's nothing wrong with that.

In summary,

Pop music is a mixing pot of music from both folk and elite origins, which plays out in a commercial market. This is just a different way of saying pop music is music supported by a broad base of customers.

Re: innovation is about cost reduction and my original post… I haven't actually done the research to write a graduate thesis on this thing, but many revolutionary styles have three things in common at their inception: 1. cost reduction, 2. radically different from existing styles, 3. targeting a neglected audience. Most frequently, the neglected audience was young black people. Basically it's disruptive innovation, which is a prominent business buzzword that I don't want to sit here and talk about.


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 Post subject: Re: state your unpopular opinions as facts
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 12:19 pm 
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Hang wrote:
batman wrote:
Nah, it was just a two year phase that began when I heard Led Zeppelin for the first time at age 13. The phase was over around age 15. Before I was 13 I was into pop and hip hop and rock and other stuff, I just kind of stopped listening to all of it (except rock) when I was 13.

A lot of people on DDD speak about this musical "evolution" they supposedly go through, where their taste follows a linear path closer to some mystical point of musical enlightenment. But I don't think that's necessarily true. I guess hopefully you have a better understanding of how music works as time goes on, but taste is not necessarily a linear path. I can say without a doubt that I was more open-minded with my taste as a 10 year old than a 14 year old.


For sure. I'm more embarrassed of myself as a music fan as a 14 year old than I am as a 8 year old when I asked for and received No Strings Attached by Nsync for Christmas - not because of the music I listened to but because of the way I acted when I thought Metallica were the height of music. I was a cunt.


I had a similar Metallica experience at that age (although my progression was more linear since I didn't have much independent taste before then).


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 Post subject: Re: state your unpopular opinions as facts
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 12:30 pm 
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Eric Wood wrote:
corrections wrote:
It isn't a circular definition that he's giving so much as reductive (i.e. not high cultural). The reason I think you definition fails is that it ignores popular music in most of music history. While this would often be called folk music I think there is certain stuff that was regionally very popular and did not require a middle class to consume it or indeed that the artist make very much at all. This music was literally popular but did not require a middle class. Conversely the more useful definition in my view is the stylistic one. Music emerging not from higher cultural trends (so called art music) but from the people generally (folk music) and those things that are derivative from it. The popular music you speak of is music that comes from these roots (and very specifically southern poor black roots and to a lesser extent southern poor white roots). This stuff is popular music regardless of whether it is actually popular in and of itself. In order for it to be widely disseminated I'll grant you a middle class is required (or at least a class with disposable income).


I'm not saying the music has to be purchased by some certain amount of people to qualify as pop. I didn't think I had to spell out the element of intent. Folk musicians from times gone past had no intent of being sustained by performing music and did not view their listeners as customers. I'm sure we could go through the history of street performance and find intent and call it pop music. But even then, without a fixed venue for consumption, there still is a very limited "pop culture."

Now, second, you say "the more useful definition is the stylistic one." Stylistic, as in, the aesthetic definition? Because I hardly see how you could argue that an aesthetic definition is more useful than an economic one. That's a baffling assertion.

Contrary to your claims, the pop music I speak of comes from BOTH folk roots AND elite roots. It's the mixing and constant remixing of both, which occurs because of the money involved. And so that gives us three broad genres. Obviously you will still be able to go and find artists that straddle the lines, but there's nothing wrong with that.

In summary,

Pop music is a mixing pot of music from both folk and elite origins, which plays out in a commercial market. This is just a different way of saying pop music is music supported by a broad base of customers.

Re: innovation is about cost reduction and my original post… I haven't actually done the research to write a graduate thesis on this thing, but many revolutionary styles have three things in common at their inception: 1. cost reduction, 2. radically different from existing styles, 3. targeting a neglected audience. Most frequently, the neglected audience was young black people. Basically it's disruptive innovation, which is a prominent business buzzword that I don't want to sit here and talk about.


How much familiarity do you have with musical development before the 20th century or outside of the west. Because that is certainly not true in the West especially not before the advent of recorded music. Why are you cabining yourself to modern music history?

As for the bold point incredibly inaccurate and is a concept completely wedded to the recorded period of music. The performers themselves aren't what necessarily matter in popular music. There are songs that permeate popular consciousness that are of very old origin or no one knows the origin. That is popular music that all people share and those songs do no require a middle class to exist, be performed, or listened to and they haven't for much of history. Your economic definition is very narrow indeed.

As for the second bold point I would go with a stylistic definition (not just aesthetics but origin) definition because I think it much more meaningful to look at the musical progression than define the music based on economics. Economics certainly contribute to the development of music. They do not drive evolutions in style. And btw I think you are using elite roots in the wrong way. What stylistically in pop music originates from elite roots? Elite styles may be coopted into the music but they are almost never at the root of popular music (just as art music can coopt popular music).


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 Post subject: Re: state your unpopular opinions as facts
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 2:14 pm 
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corrections wrote:
And btw I think you are using elite roots in the wrong way. What stylistically in pop music originates from elite roots? Elite styles may be coopted into the music but they are almost never at the root of popular music (just as art music can coopt popular music).


Opera, and therefore crooner pop. Ballroom dancing. Pulling down musicians from the existing classical tradition and playing to a wider audience.

Edit: even the modern Piano, isn't it?


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 Post subject: Re: state your unpopular opinions as facts
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 2:39 pm 
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Eric Wood wrote:
corrections wrote:
And btw I think you are using elite roots in the wrong way. What stylistically in pop music originates from elite roots? Elite styles may be coopted into the music but they are almost never at the root of popular music (just as art music can coopt popular music).


Opera, and therefore crooner pop. Ballroom dancing. Pulling down musicians from the existing classical tradition and playing to a wider audience.

Edit: even the modern Piano, isn't it?


Opera and crooner pop aren't particularly related (they're several degrees divorced from each other in any case if there is a relationship). With ballroom dancing what exactly are you referring to? The modern piano would be an example of an instrument that does fit your model (somewhat although the cost of a piano is still pretty damn huge it's nothing like it was).


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 Post subject: Re: state your unpopular opinions as facts
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 3:20 pm 
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corrections wrote:
Eric Wood wrote:
corrections wrote:
And btw I think you are using elite roots in the wrong way. What stylistically in pop music originates from elite roots? Elite styles may be coopted into the music but they are almost never at the root of popular music (just as art music can coopt popular music).


Opera, and therefore crooner pop. Ballroom dancing. Pulling down musicians from the existing classical tradition and playing to a wider audience.

Edit: even the modern Piano, isn't it?


Opera and crooner pop aren't particularly related (they're several degrees divorced from each other in any case if there is a relationship). With ballroom dancing what exactly are you referring to? The modern piano would be an example of an instrument that does fit your model (somewhat although the cost of a piano is still pretty damn huge it's nothing like it was).


Ballroom dancing is fairly off base, as I think about it. As it moved towards string quartets and the like, I think it is an obvious mixture of traditions, but mostly it's still out of folk tradition.

Arias in opera to crooner pop is a fairly straight line. Same melodies for one voice, orchestral accompaniment, vastly different vocal styles. In any case, what about opera itself? It pretty clearly made the jump into popular music.


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 Post subject: Re: state your unpopular opinions as facts
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 5:30 pm 
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Eric Wood wrote:
corrections wrote:
Eric Wood wrote:
corrections wrote:
And btw I think you are using elite roots in the wrong way. What stylistically in pop music originates from elite roots? Elite styles may be coopted into the music but they are almost never at the root of popular music (just as art music can coopt popular music).


Opera, and therefore crooner pop. Ballroom dancing. Pulling down musicians from the existing classical tradition and playing to a wider audience.

Edit: even the modern Piano, isn't it?


Opera and crooner pop aren't particularly related (they're several degrees divorced from each other in any case if there is a relationship). With ballroom dancing what exactly are you referring to? The modern piano would be an example of an instrument that does fit your model (somewhat although the cost of a piano is still pretty damn huge it's nothing like it was).


Ballroom dancing is fairly off base, as I think about it. As it moved towards string quartets and the like, I think it is an obvious mixture of traditions, but mostly it's still out of folk tradition.

Arias in opera to crooner pop is a fairly straight line. Same melodies for one voice, orchestral accompaniment, vastly different vocal styles. In any case, what about opera itself? It pretty clearly made the jump into popular music.


Opera is an interesting case. In certain places yes it is very much popular music (especially particular Arias). Keep in mind of course Opera is not a monolithic beast either. There are certain operas that are not considered part of the high art (light operas for example in the vein of Sullivan). Opera often gets lumped in as a genre of only classical music but I think this is inaccurate. I think the popular music analog of opera would probably be musical theater (although that has remigrated up the chain in a lot of ways). I think crooner pop really has more to do with song cycles from the 19th century if we want to pin it into a classical genre.


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 Post subject: Re: state your unpopular opinions as facts
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 7:17 pm 
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pave wrote:
Tribute to JJ & On the Corner >>>>> Bitches Brew & Silent Way


No.


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 Post subject: Re: state your unpopular opinions as facts
PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 1:59 pm 
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as a cohesive work of art, Clipse's "Hell Hath No Fury" is better than any mafia/gangster movie I've ever seen.


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 Post subject: Re: state your unpopular opinions as facts
PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 7:58 pm 
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why


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 Post subject: Re: state your unpopular opinions as facts
PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 9:53 pm 
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I think I worded that poorly, I didn't mean to imply that it's "more cohesive" than, say, The Godfather (cohesiveness would be a really weird thing to even try to measure), I just said "cohesive work of art" to show that I was aware I was comparing two different art forms


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 Post subject: Re: state your unpopular opinions as facts
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 1:21 am 
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no i was thinking more an explanation of what's so great about HHNF as more than a collection of good rap tracks


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