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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Bass Guitarists
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 12:59 am 
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OK...I think we're ready to move on boss. Let's not get hung up on the 20-30 slots too much, or by the time we get to 50+ I'll be in Hospice Care. As Marvin Gaye said..."Let's Get It On" lol...Failure to make a decision is making a decision to fail!


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Bass Guitarists
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 5:10 am 
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Ariel wrote:
Ssoyd wrote:
Heep is under appreciated because they got lost in the shuffle with all the great Hard Rock/Metal bands that were around back then. I saw so many great bands live in the 70's that I barely remember them all but 3 concerts stand out as the best, Uriah Heep in 1973, Deep Purple around 1972 and Jethro Tull in 1973.


That's absolutely awesome. I'm a huge Tull fan and from everything I've seen and heard (clips and stuff) they're absolutely deserving of their reputation as one of the top live bands ever in rock and Ian as one of rock's best frontmen ever. Was fortunate to see 'em in '05, Ian's voice sucks but man is he charismatic...great show


I actually like Ian's voice. He just wasn't a high pitched screamer which for me was a refreshing change from all the Robert Plant imitators.

Ssoyd wrote:
More Uriah Heep with great Bass by Gary Thain. Tell me he doesn't deserve a spot in the top 50 at least.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xqszsnt2FTU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLCq9X1j ... =fvwp&NR=1

I'm sick of lesser players being recognized while Thain is ignored. The same is true of Heep, one of the best bands of the 70's.


Ariel wrote:
Very impressed with the music, very good, thanks for posting, I should check them out, it's a shame they're semi forgotten

Not seeing the top 50 argument, but he's damn good. Post some more performances!



Thain was, IMO, a better more advanced bass player than either Harris or Burton and exhibited far more creativity and harmonic sophistication. It's not right to degrade him because in the early 70's there were far more great bass players than in the late 70's and 80's with which to compare. Harris and Burton may have stood out more because when they played more simplicity in bass playing was in fashion. Same with Heep who had more great bands to compete with. I believe this allows them to stand out more in your mind because you were fans in the period Burton and Harris were prominent while you are more detached from some of the earlier guys and the bands they played in.

As to the sound thing being a matter of taste that is true but IMO that really isn't about bass playing as much as it is about the ability to manipulate electronics and equipment. As such I don't think it should carry a lot of weight. If Thain doesn't belong in the top 50 then Harris and Burton certainly don't either.

You want more Heep examples. I posted about 8 already. How many do you need?


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Bass Guitarists
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 7:42 am 
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Ariel wrote:
If I may, I do think it is a matter of taste in this case. I think the *way* he used distortion and effects was extremely imaginative and frankly unprecedented. Diff'rent strokes...


It's funny. I used to agree with Ssoyd and I basically always considered Cliff to be overrated. But recently, I've come to really understand his brilliance and creativity.
It's not merely that he used effects, but even when he did use them, his playing was still VERY musical and melodic (Anesthesia, Orion).
I was headbanging to Anesthesia when I was like 15 years old, but only recently have I begun to really see what Cliff was all about.
He was phenomenal.
Oh, and those Metallica "remixes" with enhanced bass are a fucking revelation! Can you actually BUY the albums like that?

Ariel wrote:
I fail to see how it's possible to be unique but not creative. Not trying to pick on you, just sayin'


Just look at Keith Moon. :razz:

Ariel wrote:
That Hamm performance is a work of art, indeed. It's absolutely earth shakingly outstanding.

More epic Hamm:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LSwiMapeFs

What do you think?


This guy REALLY knows how to phrase his notes. Damn.
Yeah I'll say he's more creative than Harris without any doubt.

Ariel wrote:
Very impressed with the music, very good, thanks for posting, I should check them out, it's a shame they're semi forgotten

Not seeing the top 50 argument, but he's damn good. Post some more performances!


Ssoyd definitely knows what he's talking about here. Totally agree with him on Thain, truly one of the most criminally underrated bassists in rock.
Also, you need some Uriah Heep in your life. I was fucking obssessed with these guys when I was about 16. Byron is also one of the most phenomenal hard rock vocalists ever.

Ariel wrote:
Also Neg please check out the myspace link I posted on the last page! You'll love it, great GREAT GREAT late 60s band (the myspace page is a tribute which has some of their music on it)


I just did, that was some great shit indeed. Especially the bassist, that's just impossible not to love!

And you should check my link on the Bass Performances thread. If you love metal, there's no way you won't love this.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Bass Guitarists
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 2:00 pm 
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Ariel: The entire "Come Taste the Band" album by Deep Purple. Tommy Bolin really pushed Hughes's versatility.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Bass Guitarists
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 5:08 pm 
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Ariel wrote:
18. Phil Lesh/Jack Casady
19. Phil Lesh/Jack Casady
20. Cliff Burton
21. Steve Harris
22. Stu Hamm
23. John Deacon
24. Aston "Family Man" Barrett


FWIW I'd throw in with Casady over Lesh, though you can't go wrong either way. I haven't gotten all the way through the backposts yet so I don't know if the same point's been made, but Cas' work with Hot Tuna was every bit as impressive as with Airplane or (shudder) Starship... The first track of his anybody ever showed me - and probably many of you fine folks :wink: - was Water Song (first link below), but Candy Man's just as impressive

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6giiYDlqRQs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9u-9L8qeWNw


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Bass Guitarists
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 1:42 am 
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I'm pretty well neutral on this Lesh/Casady deadlock. Perhaps they're both just a tad high...perhaps, but I could make a rational argument for either one being placed slightly ahead of the other. Both impactful...Casady perhaps enjoyed better bass oriented material...especially the Hot Tuna acoustic oriented stuff like Coconut mentioned while Lesh turned what could have been boring into interesting interpretations... especially those "deadheads" who needed a significant bottom end throb to free the hallucinegenic impulses beating on their brain. Ariel...it's all gonna be on you :biggrin:. That's what you're getting paid for...


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Bass Guitarists
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 8:32 am 
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Ariel/Stu/whoever,
Regarding the Casady/Lesh thing, I may be speaking out of bias 'cause I was never really into the Dead all that much, and Lesh never really stood out to me.
But Casady, by contrast, definitely stands out when he plays. Check these out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHmiFHzPqbM
(earth-shaking solo starting at 1:44)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ia2YcPw ... ure=relmfu
(awesome little divebomb at 0:45)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jR4IG6go ... ure=relmfu
(just a killer song with a killer bassline)


Last edited by Negative Creep on Thu May 10, 2012 8:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Bass Guitarists
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 11:38 am 
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Negative Creep wrote:
Ariel/Stu/whoever,
Regarding the Casady/Lesh thing, I may be speaking out of bias 'cause I was never really into the Dead all that much, and Lesh never really stood out to me.
But Casady, by contrast, definitely stands out when he plays. Check these out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHmiFHzPqbM
(four-string madness starting at 1:44)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ia2YcPw ... ure=relmfu
(awesome little divebomb at 0:45)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jR4IG6go ... ure=relmfu
(just a killer song with a killer bassline)


"Standing out" really has nothing to do with being a great bass player. It's a matter of style and the type of music being played. Phil Lesh is every bit as good as Casady. Listen to the following and notice how Lesh weaves in, out and around the music constantly improvising, without showing off. He literally invented the Jam Band style of bass playing. Lesh was born to be a Jazz player but instead got sidetracked into Rock.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MimBFN0VBys
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Js5eNljO ... re=related


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Bass Guitarists
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 6:58 pm 
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It's pretty obvious by Creeps and Ssoyds (both well reasoned) opinions that we'll never come up with a definitive answer to the Casady/Lesh debate. Ariel...please pick one and let's move on :cop: !


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Bass Guitarists
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 8:57 pm 
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Ssoyd wrote:
"Standing out" really has nothing to do with being a great bass player. It's a matter of style and the type of music being played. Phil Lesh is every bit as good as Casady. Listen to the following and notice how Lesh weaves in, out and around the music constantly improvising, without showing off. He literally invented the Jam Band style of bass playing. Lesh was born to be a Jazz player but instead got sidetracked into Rock.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MimBFN0VBys
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Js5eNljO ... re=related


Damn, great clips there! But that second one is almost 3 hours long, so it'll probably take me a little more time to hear it all (heard a good portion of it though).
I'll say that Lesh definitely has a better tone than Casady. But I prefer Jack's heavier, more 'up front' kind of style.
I wouldn't complain if Phil ended up ahead of him though.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Bass Guitarists
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 11:28 pm 
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Don't have time to give a detailed response right now, sorry doods. I'll try to sort all this out tomorrow.

I'm pretty set in my opinion that it should go

18. Phil Lesh/Jack Casady
19. Phil Lesh/Jack Casady
20. Cliff Burton
21. Steve Harris
22. Stu Hamm
23. John Deacon
24. Aston "Family Man" Barrett

...but I've historically been somewhat uncomfortable with the idea of just implementing changes in the absence of something like consensus. But shit, I *am* the Mod, and I listen very, very seriously to y'alls opinons, still have the right to adjust the list as I see fit/appropriate after hearing everyone out, no?

Bleh.

Not sure on Lesh v Casady yet. Have listened to some songs by both, have seeked them out and been listening to them recently. Lesh strikes me as a bit more creative tbh. And I can't help but suspect that his influence might be higher. He'll *probably* get the higher spot, but I can't say for sure until I listen to a bit more Casady.

If anyone has any major problems with my proposed 18-24, speak up now. I hasten to add that when the changes are made here (this stretch of the list), they aren't necessarily permanent changes, we can revisit these spaces later and re-order 'em if it seems right to do so.

Glad to see you contributing Coconut :smile: Thanks for chiming in and I hope you stick around

I've got a pretty definite idea in my head of just who belongs in the 25-30 spots or so. Sneak peek: some order of Duck Dunn, Babbitt, Bootsy, Louis, and Abe probably. What do y'all think 'bout that


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Bass Guitarists
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 4:48 am 
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Negative Creep wrote:
Ssoyd wrote:
"Standing out" really has nothing to do with being a great bass player. It's a matter of style and the type of music being played. Phil Lesh is every bit as good as Casady. Listen to the following and notice how Lesh weaves in, out and around the music constantly improvising, without showing off. He literally invented the Jam Band style of bass playing. Lesh was born to be a Jazz player but instead got sidetracked into Rock.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MimBFN0VBys
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Js5eNljO ... re=related


Damn, great clips there! But that second one is almost 3 hours long, so it'll probably take me a little more time to hear it all (heard a good portion of it though).
I'll say that Lesh definitely has a better tone than Casady. But I prefer Jack's heavier, more 'up front' kind of style.
I wouldn't complain if Phil ended up ahead of him though.


As StuBass said it's a tough call and I wouldn't claim to know who deserves the higher position. Ariel, it's up to you but if it was me I'd leave them tied. Negative Creep, Glad you enjoyed those. In addition to Lesh you have 2 outstanding guitarists in the first clip in John Scofield (a noted Jazz player) and Warren Haynes (Allman Brothers and Gov't Mule)


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Bass Guitarists
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 11:01 am 
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Sooooo, it's been a long time since I listened to the 'Live/Dead' album, and man I nearly forgot how incredible "Dark Star" is.
Lesh is fantastic throughout, what a great harmonic counterpoint his bass is:



*Parts 2 and 3 are also in the related videos*


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Bass Guitarists
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 3:43 pm 
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Listened to the earlier Thain links you posted Ssoyd and which I'd forgotten about. Damn he's creative, if I didn't know better I'd think it was prime Entwistle, and that's a huge compliment obviously. He'll get a spot here, and a good one :smile:

Very impressed by the Heep's music too, they're fantastic. Another true metal band in the 70s, who knew?

StuBass wrote:
OK...I think we're ready to move on boss. Let's not get hung up on the 20-30 slots too much, or by the time we get to 50+ I'll be in Hospice Care. As Marvin Gaye said..."Let's Get It On" lol...Failure to make a decision is making a decision to fail!


Hahaha classic Stu. You have a point.

Ssoyd wrote:
I actually like Ian's voice. He just wasn't a high pitched screamer which for me was a refreshing change from all the Robert Plant imitators.


The Plant imitators - and in my book, Plant himself in many (most?) cases - are extremely irritating. But I mean today's Ian Anderson, he's kinda lost his voice :-/

Bought Benefit recently btw and very impressed, been listening to it a lot, great album

Ssoyd wrote:
It's not right to degrade [Thain] because in the early 70's there were far more great bass players than in the late 70's and 80's with which to compare. Harris and Burton may have stood out more because when they played more simplicity in bass playing was in fashion.


There's a lot of truth to this and it's a point I'm glad someone pointed out, it's worth taking into account this issue of some eras of rock being more saturated with great players than others. (Analogous imo to Joey and Travis being overrated today as drummers because they don't have too much competition; stick em in the early 70s and they don't make drum mag covers.) Still think Harris and especially Burton are more creative than Thain but he's damn good and I reckon it's close between him and Harris. I need to buy some Heep, after I do my opinion may change

I WISH you could buy the Metallica albums like that Neg! Those mixes with boosted bass guitar were made by using Guitar Hero: Metallica, which isolates the different studio tracks (drum, bass, etc). Any song off that game, you can find a boosted bass version of on youtube :smile:

Also if you like Cliff check out Kill 'Em All which is the one Cliff-era Met album which already had bass high in the mix to begin with

Negative Creep wrote:
Ariel wrote:
I fail to see how it's possible to be unique but not creative. Not trying to pick on you, just sayin'


Just look at Keith Moon. :razz:


Nah you're just wrong

Negative Creep wrote:
Ariel wrote:
That Hamm performance is a work of art, indeed. It's absolutely earth shakingly outstanding.

More epic Hamm:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LSwiMapeFs

What do you think?


This guy REALLY knows how to phrase his notes. Damn.
Yeah I'll say he's more creative than Harris without any doubt.


I think it would be more difficult for someone who's good to do an accurate/believable Harris impression style wise than Hamm impression. In terms of doing an impression that a listener who is very familiar with the artists in question can't tell the difference between this player and Harris/Hamm himself

Negative Creep wrote:
Ariel wrote:
Also Neg please check out the myspace link I posted on the last page! You'll love it, great GREAT GREAT late 60s band (the myspace page is a tribute which has some of their music on it)


I just did, that was some great shit indeed. Especially the bassist, that's just impossible not to love!


Band's called Touch. Read this, it will BLOW YOUR MIND (I urge all forumites to read this, very very interesting piece of rock history right here):

http://allmusic.com/artist/touch-p389183

http://allmusic.com/album/touch-r51329

(those are two diff links, lol...read em both, they're both brief/short)

beaverteeth92 wrote:
Ariel: The entire "Come Taste the Band" album by Deep Purple. Tommy Bolin really pushed Hughes's versatility.


Looking forward to checking some of that stuff out :smile: ...eventually

StuBass wrote:
I'm pretty well neutral on this Lesh/Casady deadlock. Perhaps they're both just a tad high...perhaps, but I could make a rational argument for either one being placed slightly ahead of the other. Both impactful...Casady perhaps enjoyed better bass oriented material...especially the Hot Tuna acoustic oriented stuff like Coconut mentioned while Lesh turned what could have been boring into interesting interpretations... especially those "deadheads" who needed a significant bottom end throb to free the hallucinegenic impulses beating on their brain. Ariel...it's all gonna be on you . That's what you're getting paid for...


Excellent post, good general survey of the terrain of this Lesh/Casady discussion

Negative Creep wrote:
Ariel/Stu/whoever,
Regarding the Casady/Lesh thing, I may be speaking out of bias 'cause I was never really into the Dead all that much, and Lesh never really stood out to me.
But Casady, by contrast, definitely stands out when he plays. Check these out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHmiFHzPqbM
(earth-shaking solo starting at 1:44)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ia2YcPw ... ure=relmfu
(awesome little divebomb at 0:45)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jR4IG6go ... ure=relmfu
(just a killer song with a killer bassline)


Absolutely blown away

Ssoyd wrote:
Phil Lesh is every bit as good as Casady. Listen to the following and notice how Lesh weaves in, out and around the music constantly improvising, without showing off. He literally invented the Jam Band style of bass playing. Lesh was born to be a Jazz player but instead got sidetracked into Rock.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MimBFN0VBys
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Js5eNljO ... re=related


Okay I'm convinced, Lesh takes Casady in creativity. Wow. They're close. Both deserve to be considered bass gods, not demi gods, actual gods. Wow.

Thanks everyone for the spirited discussion, posting all the performances by these two, etc.

Watching the first of those Lesh videos reminds me, wasn't he one of the innovators of the 6 string, too? And one of the defining pick players ever? More reason for him imo to be ahead of Casady tbh


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Bass Guitarists
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 3:54 pm 
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Changing to list on page one to read:

18. Phil Lesh
19. Jack Casady
20. Cliff Burton
21. Steve Harris
22. Stuart Hamm
23. John Deacon
24. Aston "Family Man" Barrett

Done. Spots 25-28 have the people, in the order (who was highest, who was second highest etc) they were in, who were bumped out of 18-24!


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