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 Post subject: Re: state your unpopular opinions as facts
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 11:29 pm 
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McMurphy wrote:
Kind of Blue is massively overrated and doesn't even hold a candle to Bitches Brew or In a Silent Way.


Very false.


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 Post subject: Re: state your unpopular opinions as facts
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 12:08 am 
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Tribute to JJ & On the Corner >>>>> Bitches Brew & Silent Way


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 Post subject: Re: state your unpopular opinions as facts
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 9:33 am 
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corrections wrote:
Eric Wood wrote:
corrections wrote:
Hmm...I think this is an overstatement of a progression that I don't think is demonstrated by music history outside a couple of specific examples.


I think it's a dominant trend of popular music. Pop music is, by definition, music which is supported by a broad base of paying customers. Therefore, by definition, pop music doesn't even exist without a middle class to pay for it. And therefore, it doesn't make sense to study pop music history from a stylistic or social viewpoint but not from an economic viewpoint.


I was not arguing for ignoring an economic viewpoint. As far as your definition of pop-music that definition sounds a bit dubious to me. What makes you think a middle class must exist to support pop music?

There are different possible definitions for "pop music". Eric's version would be a short term for "popular music", so all music that is popular with a broad mainstream audience. You could also define "pop music" as encompassing all music that evolved from pop cultural influences (as opposed to high cultural ones), which then would include music that is not actually all that popular, and even exclude music that may be very popular. By this second definition it definitely makes sense to study pop music from a stylistic or social viewpoint without looking at economic factors.


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 Post subject: Re: state your unpopular opinions as facts
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 12:34 pm 
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pauldrach wrote:
corrections wrote:
Eric Wood wrote:
corrections wrote:
Hmm...I think this is an overstatement of a progression that I don't think is demonstrated by music history outside a couple of specific examples.


I think it's a dominant trend of popular music. Pop music is, by definition, music which is supported by a broad base of paying customers. Therefore, by definition, pop music doesn't even exist without a middle class to pay for it. And therefore, it doesn't make sense to study pop music history from a stylistic or social viewpoint but not from an economic viewpoint.


I was not arguing for ignoring an economic viewpoint. As far as your definition of pop-music that definition sounds a bit dubious to me. What makes you think a middle class must exist to support pop music?

There are different possible definitions for "pop music". Eric's version would be a short term for "popular music", so all music that is popular with a broad mainstream audience. You could also define "pop music" as encompassing all music that evolved from pop cultural influences (as opposed to high cultural ones), which then would include music that is not actually all that popular, and even exclude music that may be very popular. By this second definition it definitely makes sense to study pop music from a stylistic or social viewpoint without looking at economic factors.


First of all "middle class" was too specific.

How can you define pop music as music coming from pop culture influences? Isn't that just circular logic? Where did the pop culture come from?

corrections, how would you define "pop music"?


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 Post subject: Re: state your unpopular opinions as facts
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 3:16 pm 
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RE: the Bob Dylan/lyrics discussion a few pages back, Bob Dylan has a mastery of the English language never seen before or since in the history of rock music (or probably music as a whole). Like, it's never even been approached.


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 Post subject: Re: state your unpopular opinions as facts
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 4:16 pm 
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Good Lyrics, just like music, is subjective.


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 Post subject: Re: state your unpopular opinions as facts
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 4:38 pm 
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Whether someone likes something is subjective, obviously, but Bob Dylan's lyrics are objectively more complex and show a greater command of the English language than pretty much any other lyricist that I can think of. The way he uses rhythm, rhyme, repetition of sounds, contrast of sounds, metaphor, innuendo, imagery, and pretty much everything else you can do with words is beyond compare in rock lyricists.


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 Post subject: Re: state your unpopular opinions as facts
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 6:28 pm 
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It is possible to like something without being sensitive to valid aesthetic reasons. Hyper-radical subjectivism about taste is worse than creationism.


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 Post subject: Re: state your unpopular opinions as facts
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 10:04 pm 
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pnoom wrote:
It is possible to like something without being sensitive to valid aesthetic reasons.

What's "valid"? Who decides valid? Who decides who decides valid? Why? How?


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 Post subject: Re: state your unpopular opinions as facts
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 11:21 pm 
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Tudwell wrote:
RE: the Bob Dylan/lyrics discussion a few pages back, Bob Dylan has a mastery of the English language never seen before or since in the history of rock music (or probably music as a whole). Like, it's never even been approached.


townes van zandt does the same job without the wordiness.


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 Post subject: Re: state your unpopular opinions as facts
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 12:18 am 
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Rudy Rules wrote:
pnoom wrote:
It is possible to like something without being sensitive to valid aesthetic reasons.

What's "valid"? Who decides valid? Who decides who decides valid? Why? How?

You changed your post.

In any case, aesthetic validity is no different from rational validity in scientific discourse in that competent but fallible people put forth the best reasons they can and work through them together. Only in the case of aesthetic reasoning there is a substantial subjective component that science excludes, which makes it complicated but doesn't change the importance of validity.


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 Post subject: Re: state your unpopular opinions as facts
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 1:30 am 
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pnoom wrote:
Rudy Rules wrote:
pnoom wrote:
It is possible to like something without being sensitive to valid aesthetic reasons.

What's "valid"? Who decides valid? Who decides who decides valid? Why? How?

You changed your post.

Well I decided I'd rather continue drama than try to stop it. Plus I forget this is supposed to be about music discussion. But I have as much interest in the subjective/objective conversation as I do in whatever the hell they talk about in the vocalists forum.


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 Post subject: Re: state your unpopular opinions as facts
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 8:20 am 
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In that case, I preferred your first post.


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 Post subject: Re: state your unpopular opinions as facts
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 8:33 am 
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dreamcoil wrote:
Tudwell wrote:
RE: the Bob Dylan/lyrics discussion a few pages back, Bob Dylan has a mastery of the English language never seen before or since in the history of rock music (or probably music as a whole). Like, it's never even been approached.


townes van zandt does the same job without the wordiness.


I'll have to check him out. Heard the name, but don't think I've listened to more than a song or two.


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 Post subject: Re: state your unpopular opinions as facts
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 8:46 pm 
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Tudwell wrote:
RE: the Bob Dylan/lyrics discussion a few pages back, Bob Dylan has a mastery of the English language never seen before or since in the history of rock music (or probably music as a whole). Like, it's never even been approached.


Sounds like someone doesn't have much familiarity with English music from the renaissance through the baroque (not that I have much either but I think you'd definitely have to dig in there to say that with any certainty).


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