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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Rock Artists Of The 1960's
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 8:56 pm 
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Negative Creep wrote:
Sampson,
If you're still around, I was wondering your personal opinion on Tim Buckley, if you've ever heard him.

Gives me chills like no other singer I've heard.


Yeah, Buckley and his son both had great voices. One of the more unlikely tracks on my iPod is Tim Buckley on the Monkees TV Show doing "Song To The Siren".


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Rock Artists Of The 1960's
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 9:28 pm 
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I would VERY strongly recommend checking more of his material.


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Rock Artists Of The 1960's
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 12:09 am 
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Sampson I'm very surprised to see Presley at #8 here. Most of his 60's material was generally not well received by his hardcore fans, especially all the cheesy movie soundtracks and whatnot. From the years 62-67, his material was suffering drastically and drifting more toward a Hollywood 'adult' aesthetic, no doubt the result of severe mistrust and bad management decisions on Parker's part.
The gospel things like How Great Thou Art were the only saving grace during this period, imo, as it stands as one of his finest vocal albums, but everyting else was either pure Hollywood schlock or meaningless movie fodder.

He didn't reclaim his original fire and energy until 68 of course, and 1969 especially was probably the best year for him musically (maybe even as much as '56), but until that point he was making mostly irrelevant, out of touch music that even he HIMSELF did not like.

*I know I'm rambling here*

Anyway, we all know that Elvis is THE #1 for cultural impact, as you have explained before. But that massive cultural shift took place in the 50's. What cultural effects did he have in the 1960's?


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Rock Artists Of The 1960's
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 9:14 pm 
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Bruce, if you're reading this, would you agree with my above post?
I know you also don't particularly care for Presley's 60's material, do you agree with his #8 placement here?

Although, I have to say that Elvis Is Back (1960) and From Elvis In Memphis (1969) are usually credited as his best studio albums.
But almost everything in between, except the amazing How Great Thou Art, is largely throw-away fodder, with barely a good song to be found here and there ("Summer Kisses Winter Tears" happens to be a phenomenal song and vocal performance that came from that dubious era).


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Rock Artists Of The 1960's
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 9:31 pm 
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Negative Creep wrote:
Bruce, if you're reading this, would you agree with my above post?
I know you also don't particularly care for Presley's 60's material, do you agree with his #8 placement here?



I'd probably drop him one slot to #9. I'd move Ray Charles up to #7 or #8, but I don't see anybody else below Elvis who I think should be above him for the decade. Yes, his 1965-1967 stuff is very weak, but he came back pretty strong in late 1968 and 1969.


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Rock Artists Of The 1960's
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 9:32 pm 
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Yeah I think 1969 was the best year of his career, he was just on fire.


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Rock Artists Of The 1960's
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 9:44 pm 
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Negative Creep wrote:
Yeah I think 1969 was the best year of his career, he was just on fire.


His best year was easily 1956.

Hound Dog
Don't Be Cruel
Heartbreak Hotel
I Want You, I Need You. I Love You
My Baby Left Me
Love Me Tender
His first two albums
Ed Sullivan
Milton Berle
Dorsey Brothers Stage Show

It's not even debatable. 1969 is not even in the same ballpark as 1956 and 1957.


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Rock Artists Of The 1960's
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 6:46 am 
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Agree with Bruce.


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Rock Artists Of The 1960's
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 8:36 am 
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Love Me Tender is an overrated bore. And I say that as the biggest Elvis fan on this forum.

And if you wanna factor in all the 'importance' and whatnot, then yeah 56 is his best year no doubt. But I'm just talking strictly about the quality of the music.
I love both eras with all my heart, but I am just always FLOORED by how awesome he sounds on From Elvis In Memphis.
Suspicious Minds also came from 69, one of the biggest hits of his career.


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Rock Artists Of The 1960's
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 7:41 pm 
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Negative Creep wrote:
Sampson I'm very surprised to see Presley at #8 here. Most of his 60's material was generally not well received by his hardcore fans, especially all the cheesy movie soundtracks and whatnot. From the years 62-67, his material was suffering drastically and drifting more toward a Hollywood 'adult' aesthetic, no doubt the result of severe mistrust and bad management decisions on Parker's part.
The gospel things like How Great Thou Art were the only saving grace during this period, imo, as it stands as one of his finest vocal albums, but everyting else was either pure Hollywood schlock or meaningless movie fodder.

He didn't reclaim his original fire and energy until 68 of course, and 1969 especially was probably the best year for him musically (maybe even as much as '56), but until that point he was making mostly irrelevant, out of touch music that even he HIMSELF did not like.

*I know I'm rambling here*

Anyway, we all know that Elvis is THE #1 for cultural impact, as you have explained before. But that massive cultural shift took place in the 50's. What cultural effects did he have in the 1960's?


Let's briefly review the criteria:
Presley underachieved massively in the 60's, but he was still dominant even releasing movie drek for most of that time. By Joel Whitburn's Billboard tabulations for singles success, only two artists in the rock era ever scored 4,000+ points for a single decade. The Beatles in the 60's and Elvis in the 60's. Elvis, in half a decade in the 50's is next with well over three thousand and Mariah Carey in the 90's also nudged by the three thousand level. By comparison, the top singer in the 70's (Elton John) and 80's (Michael Jackson barely topped TWO thousand points). In other words, using the same methodology, Presley's most disappointing creative period still had him almost twice as popular than the next most popular acts in history during their PEAK creative years. The third place finisher in the 60's was Ray Charles who was 1,500 points behind Presley! That's just 60% of Presley's success. Commercial Impact is a quarter of the criteria and Presley bolstered that even more in Great Britain (11 #1 singles) and on the album charts (second behind the Beatles on Billboard's album charts for the decade). That's such a huge advantage that others would have to kill him in the other areas to make it up. They don't.

Presley's influence stylistically in the 60's was still big. Early on he explored a lot of diverse material, expanding the palatte for what was acceptable for rock yet again. His musical impact, particularly as you say his 68-69 period was off the charts, artists love that period of his career as much as you do. Culturally, let's not forget the guy made two monsterous comebacks at times where comebacks in rock were virtually non-existant, and what those meant in the bigger picture. When he got out of the Army there was serious reservations whether he could recapture the popularity of his earlier period and more importantly rock itself was at its lowest point with the watered down teen idol, finger snapping, sweater wearing pubsecent Dick Clark promoted wannabes taking up more and more of the spotlight. Presley came back and while he didn't "rock" (to use it as a verb) as he did pre-Army, he definitely reinvigorated the market and the teen pop era wound down rather quickly, though it continued to have a place for the rest of the time). Now he might've just been cruising in third speed down the highway creatively at this point, occasionally shifting up a notch to pass a slower car ahead of him, but to keep the car analogy intact, the artists drafting behind him and using his presence to keep pace themselves was significant. It's hardly a surprise that the period most rock historians find weakest at the top throughout all of history was when Elvis was out of the picture and upon his return things picked back up across the board. He then is shuttled off to Hollywood, forced to make increasingly lame movies, Parker will barely let him release anything that doesn't tie in with a movie, meaning the music quality plummets, and while still popular he is quickly becoming irrelevant becausing he's no longer releasing challenging material. Then at the height of the counterculture revolution Elvis explodes back into the public consciousness with the '68 Comeback Special, only the single most iconic televised rock production ever, helping to reintroduce the 50's style of rock (as those were mostly his past hits he performed on the show). Within no time you have a pretty big 50's revival with Richard Nader putting on hugely successful nostalgic shows featuring older artists, some re-making the charts again over the next few years, some throwback type records, etc. As for Presley that success leads him to Vegas which fully ushered in the rock concert as epic coronation, with the Also Sprach Zarathustra announcing him like a God coming down off a throne. Suddenly rock shows are massive theatrical productions, not just a few guys jamming on stage, with pompous excess the rule of thumb for most big name stars. That's a lotta impact all around, in every single area, even if in retrospect most of us wish he just fired Parker, holed up with some really good musicians and woodshedded for that decade and released the results.

If anything he's too low going strictly by the criteria, but I agree that on the surface thinking back to his 60's output you tend to think of what might've been rather than what he did.


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Rock Artists Of The 1960's
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 8:11 pm 
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Sampson wrote:
The third place finisher in the 60's was Ray Charles who was 1,500 points behind Presley! That's just 60% of Presley's success.


This assumes that Whitburn's point system makes good mathematical sense.....which it does not.

For instance.

A record that peaks at #11 in a 10 week run gets 60 points
A record that peeks at #10 in a 10 week run gets 70 points

The second record gets 17% more points for peaking one notch higher.

A record that peaks at #91 and is on for 3 weeks gets 13 points
A record that peaks at # 90 and is on for 3 weeks gets 18 points.

The second record gets 38% more points for peaking at # 90 rather than
# 91.

There is also no adjustment for chart movement. So records from the 50s when there was little chart movement get a lot more points for being on the chart for a lot more weeks than a record from like 1966, when there was tons of chart movement and records sold much quicker. And nowadays there again is less chart movement.

Whitburn's system for points with the album chart is even worse.


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Rock Artists Of The 1960's
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 8:37 pm 
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Sampson wrote:
Negative Creep wrote:
Sampson I'm very surprised to see Presley at #8 here. Most of his 60's material was generally not well received by his hardcore fans, especially all the cheesy movie soundtracks and whatnot. From the years 62-67, his material was suffering drastically and drifting more toward a Hollywood 'adult' aesthetic, no doubt the result of severe mistrust and bad management decisions on Parker's part.
The gospel things like How Great Thou Art were the only saving grace during this period, imo, as it stands as one of his finest vocal albums, but everyting else was either pure Hollywood schlock or meaningless movie fodder.

He didn't reclaim his original fire and energy until 68 of course, and 1969 especially was probably the best year for him musically (maybe even as much as '56), but until that point he was making mostly irrelevant, out of touch music that even he HIMSELF did not like.

*I know I'm rambling here*

Anyway, we all know that Elvis is THE #1 for cultural impact, as you have explained before. But that massive cultural shift took place in the 50's. What cultural effects did he have in the 1960's?


Let's briefly review the criteria:
Presley underachieved massively in the 60's, but he was still dominant even releasing movie drek for most of that time. By Joel Whitburn's Billboard tabulations for singles success, only two artists in the rock era ever scored 4,000+ points for a single decade. The Beatles in the 60's and Elvis in the 60's. Elvis, in half a decade in the 50's is next with well over three thousand and Mariah Carey in the 90's also nudged by the three thousand level. By comparison, the top singer in the 70's (Elton John) and 80's (Michael Jackson barely topped TWO thousand points). In other words, using the same methodology, Presley's most disappointing creative period still had him almost twice as popular than the next most popular acts in history during their PEAK creative years. The third place finisher in the 60's was Ray Charles who was 1,500 points behind Presley! That's just 60% of Presley's success. Commercial Impact is a quarter of the criteria and Presley bolstered that even more in Great Britain (11 #1 singles) and on the album charts (second behind the Beatles on Billboard's album charts for the decade). That's such a huge advantage that others would have to kill him in the other areas to make it up. They don't.

Presley's influence stylistically in the 60's was still big. Early on he explored a lot of diverse material, expanding the palatte for what was acceptable for rock yet again. His musical impact, particularly as you say his 68-69 period was off the charts, artists love that period of his career as much as you do. Culturally, let's not forget the guy made two monsterous comebacks at times where comebacks in rock were virtually non-existant, and what those meant in the bigger picture. When he got out of the Army there was serious reservations whether he could recapture the popularity of his earlier period and more importantly rock itself was at its lowest point with the watered down teen idol, finger snapping, sweater wearing pubsecent Dick Clark promoted wannabes taking up more and more of the spotlight. Presley came back and while he didn't "rock" (to use it as a verb) as he did pre-Army, he definitely reinvigorated the market and the teen pop era wound down rather quickly, though it continued to have a place for the rest of the time). Now he might've just been cruising in third speed down the highway creatively at this point, occasionally shifting up a notch to pass a slower car ahead of him, but to keep the car analogy intact, the artists drafting behind him and using his presence to keep pace themselves was significant. It's hardly a surprise that the period most rock historians find weakest at the top throughout all of history was when Elvis was out of the picture and upon his return things picked back up across the board. He then is shuttled off to Hollywood, forced to make increasingly lame movies, Parker will barely let him release anything that doesn't tie in with a movie, meaning the music quality plummets, and while still popular he is quickly becoming irrelevant becausing he's no longer releasing challenging material. Then at the height of the counterculture revolution Elvis explodes back into the public consciousness with the '68 Comeback Special, only the single most iconic televised rock production ever, helping to reintroduce the 50's style of rock (as those were mostly his past hits he performed on the show). Within no time you have a pretty big 50's revival with Richard Nader putting on hugely successful nostalgic shows featuring older artists, some re-making the charts again over the next few years, some throwback type records, etc. As for Presley that success leads him to Vegas which fully ushered in the rock concert as epic coronation, with the Also Sprach Zarathustra announcing him like a God coming down off a throne. Suddenly rock shows are massive theatrical productions, not just a few guys jamming on stage, with pompous excess the rule of thumb for most big name stars. That's a lotta impact all around, in every single area, even if in retrospect most of us wish he just fired Parker, holed up with some really good musicians and woodshedded for that decade and released the results.

If anything he's too low going strictly by the criteria, but I agree that on the surface thinking back to his 60's output you tend to think of what might've been rather than what he did.


Beautiful man, beautiful.
Admittedly I do like SOME of the 60's movie stuff (not a lot of it though). Have you heard the track Summer Kisses, Winter Tears? Some of the best soft singing ever caught on record.

While I do agree with people like John Lennon about Elvis losing his "rock credentials" after he went into the Army, he was indeed still massively popular as you say (though in a different way). I guess if anything, it's a testament to the man's greatness that he managed to stay so successful IN SPITE of releasing so much sub-standard crap.

I agree he should've fired Parker, who DID make Elvis unthinkable sums of money, but really nothing else.
Have you heard that Parker originally wanted the Comeback Special to be a "Christmas Show" with Elvis singing christmas carols for the whole thing? :lol:
Thank God Elvis stuck to his guns on this one, and good taste prevailed.

:cheers:


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Rock Artists Of The 1960's
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 9:36 pm 
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Bruce, you're not wrong about Whitburn's system having flaws--you haven't even mentioned the most egregious (unless he's changed it since the last edition I bought), which is that if a song spends several weeks at number 2, it actually LOSES points if it moves up to number one for one week. The failure to normalize for era is definitely a problm.

But it's not THAT far off, especially within an era. Elvis being 1500 points ahead of anyone other than the Beatles for the 60s isn't a product of those faults in the system. It's substantial.


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Rock Artists Of The 1960's
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 10:24 pm 
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Brett Alan wrote:
Bruce, you're not wrong about Whitburn's system having flaws--you haven't even mentioned the most egregious (unless he's changed it since the last edition I bought), which is that if a song spends several weeks at number 2, it actually LOSES points if it moves up to number one for one week. The failure to normalize for era is definitely a problm.

But it's not THAT far off, especially within an era. Elvis being 1500 points ahead of anyone other than the Beatles for the 60s isn't a product of those faults in the system. It's substantial.


Yes, if it's #2 for 4 weeks it gets more points if it stays at # 2 or drops down the next week than if it moves up to # 1.

And Elvis's 60s total is somewhat a product of the system not normalizing, because his real big hits in the decade came early and late. He didn't do much from 65 to 67 when many huge hits were only staying on the charts for 10 weeks.

Elvis gets 146 points for "Stuck On You" but the Troggs only get 121 points for "Wild Thing." That's 21% more points for Elvis. It was much easier to have a longer run at #1 in 1960 than in 1966, when there were many more #1 records to compete with. There were only 19 #1 records in 1960, there were 27 #1 records in 1966.

That being said, I would only drop him one notch on the 60s list, down to #9 with Ray Charles moving ahead of him because of other parts of the criteria.


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Rock Artists Of The 1960's
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 7:43 am 
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Sampson wrote:
In other words, using the same methodology, Presley's most disappointing creative period still had him almost twice as popular than the next most popular acts in history during their PEAK creative years.


That is just awesome. And somehow not really surprising.

I do think that Elvis Is Back (1960) deserves all the acclaim it gets, actually.


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