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 Post subject: Re: Why video games can never succeed as art
PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 6:29 am 
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Obviously RPGs were around before Zelda, DUH.

Though in the early days RPGs were very much exclusive to computers and those were mostly of the text or point and click variety. Zelda was a very early example of a game that combined RPG elements and real time action.

Granted it wasn't the first, there were PC games like Dragon Slayer and Xanadu that did that, but Zelda brought that experience to the home console, and this was before Final Fantasy, Dragon Warrior or Phantasy Star, back when RPGs just plain didn't exist on consoles.

Even if Zelda isn't considered a true RPG it still had elements that would influence RPGs to come especially in the action RPG genre.

While adventure games were around before Zelda, it's one of the first action adventure games as opposed to a point and click or text. Again it wasn't THE first.

Adventure for the Atari 2600 was the true granddaddy of action adventure games. But Zelda took the concept and significantly upgraded it in every way. LTTP and Ocarina brought the genre to even greater heights.


Last edited by boo boo on Tue Nov 09, 2010 9:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Why video games can never succeed as art
PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 6:31 pm 
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Fallout and Bioshock have their origins in PC gaming, so it would be largely irrelevant if Zelda brought RPG games to home gaming consoles. It's not true, though, as there were dozens of RPGs on home consoles before the first Zelda was released in 1987, starting with Advanced Dungeons and Dragons for the Intellivision in 1982.


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 Post subject: Re: Why video games can never succeed as art
PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 7:03 pm 
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jumpman8828 wrote:
I think part of the issue is that video games are so expensive to develop, and the level of technical proficiency required to create a video game is relatively high compared to other media. You can film a movie on a handheld camera, you can record an album in your garage with basic equipment (or even solely with software), and if you have the vision/talent then it can be fantastic. The ability of the everyman to make contributions to these fields has spurred their development tremendously, IMO anyway.

But to create a modern video game requires a combination of very different abilities and extensive knowledge. To create what might be considered video game "art" you need not only the vision, but also the ability to write very complex code, develop graphics, animation, etc. Now of course some people/groups of people are capable of doing this independently, but it seems like it would be so difficult without the resources of a big developer. So instead of video games for the sake of video games, you get video games for the sake of sales, and that's where the "99%" argument comes into play. Why take risks when you'll sell 10 million copies of Madden 2030?

Also, video games are relatively young, so of course there's time to develop the field.

This is completely changing with the advent of Iphone, Android, XBA, and PSN games btw. Have you heard of Minecraft? It's being developed by one person. It's kind of a complete abstraction of game art. I'm not even including Flash games developed by one or two people. If anyone think games can't be art they should definitely check out the Experimental Gameplay Project. I think it's one of the coolest things to happen in gaming.


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 Post subject: Re: Why video games can never succeed as art
PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 9:14 pm 
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Forgotten Son wrote:
Fallout and Bioshock have their origins in PC gaming, so it would be largely irrelevant if Zelda brought RPG games to home gaming consoles. It's not true, though, as there were dozens of RPGs on home consoles before the first Zelda was released in 1987, starting with Advanced Dungeons and Dragons for the Intellivision in 1982.


Were any of these titles particular popular? Despite being a very advanced system for it's time the Intellivision was considered a commercial failure. Even the Sega CD sold twice as many units.

I'm saying Zelda was the game that really introduced these elements to a large demographic of console gamers and created a demand for similar games on home consoles. It definitely played a role in RPGs making the transition from PC to home consoles.


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 Post subject: Re: Why video games can never succeed as art
PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 9:32 pm 
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You've moved the goal posts, but whatever.

Relatively speaking, no they weren't that popular. I have no problem with your assessment that the success of the Zelda franchise in the mid-late 80s resulted in more RPGs being ported to, and developed for, consoles. To suggest that because of this games like Fallout 3 and Bioshock somehow owe a debt to Zelda, though, is preposterous.


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 Post subject: Re: Why video games can never succeed as art
PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 11:13 pm 
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Yeah point the finger at Sherick for that, not me.


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 Post subject: Re: Why video games can never succeed as art
PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 1:55 am 
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Whos Hendrix? And who the fuck is Chaplin?


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 Post subject: Re: Why video games can never succeed as art
PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 11:41 am 
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Hendrix was some guitar player from Seattle and Chaplin was the guy Hitler stole his moustache from.


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 Post subject: Re: Why video games can never succeed as art
PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 12:42 pm 
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Curiosity wrote:
I don't "assume" anything - I'm pointing out well known anime cliches.


No, you pointed out shonen cliches, which is only one genre of anime and is in itself more diverse than people think it is.


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 Post subject: Re: Why video games can never succeed as art
PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 2:06 pm 
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Elemental powers = common Shonen cliche

Stilted, awkward, plain bad plot delivery = almost all anime


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 Post subject: Re: Why video games can never succeed as art
PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 2:36 pm 
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You haven't even seen almost all anime, even seeing a quarter of it would take you a fucking lifetime.

Anime is so huge that it is it's own medium. And writing off such a huge medium like that is goddamn foolish. It's not any less closedminded than snobs who write off video games as a whole, though when they come across people like you I can't blame them.


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 Post subject: Re: Why video games can never succeed as art
PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 2:47 pm 
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Curiosity wrote:
Stilted, awkward, plain bad plot delivery = almost all anime


Same goes for "almost all" Western cartoons, movies, video games, et al. That's why ones that do it well (by ones I mean dozens and dozens, in all cases) are considered to be the good ones.


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 Post subject: Re: Why video games can never succeed as art
PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 3:07 pm 
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When it comes to video games though, consumers are very reliant on the opinions of the press, bad games don't really have a chance to sell well, unless they have a popular licensed slapped on them but most gamers know better.

But because the spotlight is reserved for the finest games and because people base their purcashing decisions on reviews from gaming sites and magazines, most gamers who go on about how terrible Modern Warfare 2 or *enter popular game here* is or whatever, they really have no fucking clue what a bad game is actually like.


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 Post subject: Re: Why video games can never succeed as art
PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 3:49 pm 
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Sherick wrote:
Curiosity wrote:
Stilted, awkward, plain bad plot delivery = almost all anime


Same goes for "almost all" Western cartoons, movies, video games, et al. That's why ones that do it well (by ones I mean dozens and dozens, in all cases) are considered to be the good ones.


But I've seen most of these issues in even the most acclaimed anime. Not to mention the cop-out endings (often Deus Ex Machina type scenarios) in so many anime series. I could pile on more criticisms, e.g. thee completely generic, repetetive character designs, the tendency to insert unneccesary comedic sequences etc but I can't be fucked. I fucking hate most pop culture in general and don't even own a TV, but Japanese pop culture is particularly bad. Some of the bands are good though (X Japan, Concerto Moon etc)


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 Post subject: Re: Why video games can never succeed as art
PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 3:52 pm 
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Location: Daniel Day Lewis has now a won a third Best Actin-- "You think you know me..." Shit.
And what are the anime which you have seen?


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