Classic Rock Junkie wrote:
I have a hard time believing how high some of these people are, Morrissey is really high compared to names below him from what I know, but maybe I just don't know much of his work. I can't believe Mariah Carrey's placement though, she's a great artist, very popular, but songwriting is where it's really lacking, I think the songwriting involved in her songs (did she actually write her own? If so, even more disappoint) is just awful. Very bland, formulaic pop and R&B writing, ripped off many others and has no spur of talent or creativity. She is an extremely talented singer, but like Britney Spears for example, they are both very popular, but could anyone say the songwriting involved for any of Britney's songs were anything but bland, formulaic and talentless? People dish out number 1 hits at companies by following a very common formula for the genre of what type of chords, choruses, etc. develop a catchy song when combined with the artists charisma/ability/sex appeal/whatever and proper marketing make a hit. That doesn't excuse the fact that the songwriting is poor. The fact that she is ahead for songwriting of some terrific, intelligent, creative, and genius songwriters that are quite low just surprises me. Popularity of songs is a big deal, and I guess that's why she's ahead, but she was really popular as an artists, her hits went really high and I guess that's why, but honestly, very few remember them. I've heard this many times, and went and tested it. You guys can too. Go and ask someone to name a Mariah Carey song, or at least 3. I've met maybe 4 people of the hundreds I've asked (did it for a paper for my pop music class, I did one similarly to see how familiar people were with Charlie Parker for my Jazz class) that can even name a song of hers. I know I can't, but that's not saying much, though I've heard many of her songs, nothing sticks to me at least. As bias as that is, objectively I find the songwriting extremely poor, I guess she's there for popularity of the songs themselves, but I can't stand seeing terrible songwriting being higher than great songwriting due to popularity, but it's bound to happen. Acclaim of her songwriting should be pretty low too, I've never heard anyone say anything about her songwriting ability except that she makes hits. So does Justin Bieber, so did the Backstreet Boys, N-Sync, Miley Cyrus, Backstreet Boys, etc. They make some good and bad songs, but they all represent terrible song writing.
EDIT: Looking at the criteria, it's extremely bias towards popularity of the hits, initial popularity, popularity within multiple genres, it's pretty much a popularity of the songs they wrote list, influence and acclaim seems small compared to all the other criteria. If Influence was the biggest, then Acclaim and Popularity tie, Mariah Carey and others would be much lower. Does she have any songwriting influence? I'd be very curious to hear about it
I was just browsing this topic for the first time, and when I look at the criteria, I see:
Criteria: - Songwriting hits generated in the US and UK (lasting popularity is acknowledged but initial popularity is given precedence due to reliability and accessibility), Songwriting influence and Songwriting reputation/acclaim. Second tier (In the event of a tie): The breadth of one's songwriting - How many different artists, styles and eras, did the writer have success with/in.
I think her placement makes sense with that criteria. She wrote / co-wrote all of her songs, both good
, so she certainly gets a lot of credit for having as many number ones / top ten hits as she has had. And she certainly has reputation / acclaim within the industry; she was nominated for and won a songwriting award every year from 1991 to 2005, and then again in 2008. And aside from the industry, she's written a couple of songs that it seems like everyone knows
(including, I suspect, your friends), even if they cannot remember who sang them or do not know that she actually wrote them.
And she's been successful as a songwriter for around 20 years, and has written songs in a number of different genres and styles. She does well under the criteria.
That said, you might be right that the inherent quality of her songwriting is lacking, that it is soulless, that it is derivative, etc., etc. But those aren't qualities listed in the criteria, and I think that the reason for that is apparent; deciding what songs are derivative and soulless is too subjective a process.