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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Bass Guitarists
PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 12:07 pm 
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Also Ssoyd...agree that versatility isn't Roccos stongest suit...but he kills in influence and impact IMO...at least among other bassists. TOP may not have the numbers in fan base compared to the Chili Peppers, but let's compare that to a guy like Hal Blaine. Few outside of music even know who he is, but there's hardly anyone who is more influential to other rock/pop era drummers.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Bass Guitarists
PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 12:34 pm 
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Ariel...hope you're feeling better. Don't tighten that G string so much and you won't get popped in the eye again. Stay away from those ER's.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Bass Guitarists
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 12:17 am 
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Is Chris Wolstenholme good enough for Top 100 yet?


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Bass Guitarists
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 12:52 am 
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beaverteeth92 wrote:
Is Chris Wolstenholme good enough for Top 100 yet?


Has he been practicing :thumb: ???


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Bass Guitarists
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 2:34 am 
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He's never not been awesome.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Bass Guitarists
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 7:05 am 
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beaverteeth92 wrote:
Is Chris Wolstenholme good enough for Top 100 yet?


He has some fans but for the life of me I just don't see anything great about his playing. He's basically a riff oriented bass player who sounds like a guitarist. He's the type of player who sounds impressive to non players. Nothing exceptional or original. He has a cool name though.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Bass Guitarists
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 11:54 am 
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Ssoyd wrote:
beaverteeth92 wrote:
Is Chris Wolstenholme good enough for Top 100 yet?


He has some fans but for the life of me I just don't see anything great about his playing. He's basically a riff oriented bass player who sounds like a guitarist. He's the type of player who sounds impressive to non players. Nothing exceptional or original. He has a cool name though.


In the "catchy name" criteria, Wolstenholme isn't even close to Flea or Bootsy...


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Bass Guitarists
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:27 pm 
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StuBass wrote:
Ssoyd wrote:
beaverteeth92 wrote:
Is Chris Wolstenholme good enough for Top 100 yet?


He has some fans but for the life of me I just don't see anything great about his playing. He's basically a riff oriented bass player who sounds like a guitarist. He's the type of player who sounds impressive to non players. Nothing exceptional or original. He has a cool name though.


In the "catchy name" criteria, Wolstenholme isn't even close to Flea or Bootsy...


Those are nick names and don't count.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Bass Guitarists
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 4:13 pm 
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Ssoyd wrote:
StuBass wrote:
Ssoyd wrote:
beaverteeth92 wrote:
Is Chris Wolstenholme good enough for Top 100 yet?


He has some fans but for the life of me I just don't see anything great about his playing. He's basically a riff oriented bass player who sounds like a guitarist. He's the type of player who sounds impressive to non players. Nothing exceptional or original. He has a cool name though.


In the "catchy name" criteria, Wolstenholme isn't even close to Flea or Bootsy...


Those are nick names and don't count.


I thought his parents named him Flea because they really wanted a dog !


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Bass Guitarists
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 8:13 pm 
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Ssoyd wrote:
Ariel wrote:
I really can't think of anyone better. If you count Levin as an '80s' bassist then Levin puts up a fight I guess...but as for the whole Flea vs Les Claypool thing, in my mind there's never been a comparison.


When I mentioned the 80-90's thing the only one I could think of who could give Flea competition was Claypool. Levin actually came out of the 70's but became well known in the 80's through his work with King Crimson. Les Claypool is a technical wizard and can play any kind of music but I enjoy listening to Flea's playing more.


The Flea vs Les thing is very interesting. They're both divinely touched in terms of creativity, they're god tier, they're insane. The difference is Les composes songs on bass and the rest of the band (guitar+drums) plays around him (I'm almost positive of this), whereas Flea, at least during the Frusciante era, largely plays his parts over Frusciante's compositions. In a way, Flea impresses me more in this regard, being equally creative vs Les while not just doing it by writing funky parts and then having the band play around him. Anyone with enough time and enough imagination could come up with really weird, cool bass parts and then ask a band to play over them...fewer could do what Flea does, here. (I'm not saying everyone is Les Claypool or that other people's parts would even touch his in creativity, but you know what I mean)

It seems to me Flea comes out of the McCartney tradition in terms of his approach to playing primarily - at least on his best, 90s/2000s stuff. Les, again, composes songs (if you can call his compositions 'songs') on bass. Nothing wrong with that, mind you -- I compose songs on bass too! It's awesome :smile: Anyway Flea has this sort of melodic subtlety that is exceedingly rare I think it matches Macca. To be honest what Les does doesn't impress me quite as much from a talent perspective.

Anyway...

StuBass wrote:
OMG...If Flea is #8 then Pino HAS to be #7. I do remember the Chili Peppers back in the early 90's as a sort of punk/neo funk band with a growing cult type popularity. Flea has obvious skills, but I personally think you guys are going just a LITTLE overboard here LOL.


Nah. I'm w Ssoyd here. You're not familiar enough with Flea's best playing, which really started in the mid 90s and peaked on the Californication album in '99 I think.

StuBass wrote:
Nate Watts is good..but not real versatile and could justifiably drop a bit IMO. A lot of Stevies popular bass parts were...Stevie (on synth).


Yeah he did look a little high to me, thanks for the input! Has he done anything else great other than Stevie, that we should know about?

StuBass wrote:
Bernard Odum was one in a long line of nasty, funky JB bassists and made an imprint in JB's funk evolution. Those bass players and drummers always locked incredibly. Papas Got A Brand New Bag (featuring Odum) is 60's funk at it's best.


But other than having the honor of playing w JB did he appreciably affect the art and sound of rock bass playing? Did he have a distinctive style, or help popularize a particular approach to the instrument?

Ariel wrote:
Tony Franklin?


Earth to forum...

Ssoyd wrote:
StuBass wrote:
It's a pleasure to agree to disagree with you Ssoyd ... Just opinions. It'ts like the old golf addage..."you drive for show and putt for dough". In bass you "slap for show and groove for dough". Flea is famous for his driving. I'd like to see how he could fit with other drummers (Garibaldi, Chambers etc) outside his RHCP comfort zone. I'd also like to see him performing in clothing other than his underwear :naughty: . Other than the point I was making with Pino (who kills Flea in versatility IMO), I don't see Flea approaching Rocco in several areas including influence.


At the 1999 Woodstock Concert Flea performed totally naked. I bet Rocco and Pino couldn't, or wouldn't do that.

Good point about Flea performing away from RHCP. I get the feeling he would do well but he hasn't proven that like Pino who's strongest trait could be versatility.

Rocco is if, anything, so stuck with one style that I have strong doubts about his versatility. I saw a video of him performing in some Bass Day concert where he was playing with unfamiliar musicians and other bass players and he played the same stuff he always does. In addition Rocco says that he derived his style from playing with Garibaldi so how would he fit in playing with different style drummers. Due to the fact that RHCP plays a more eclectic mix than than Tower of Power I'd say Flea's more versatile. I have doubts that Rocco has been more influential than Flea if for no other reason than he's less well known but Rocco has been around a lot longer.


Flea actually was the bassist on Alanis Morisette's Jagged Little Pill album, I haven't heard it but it's singer songwriter which is rather different from much RHCP. He also played on one of The Mars Volta's albums (the whole album), which is like really weird contemporary prog. Moreover he's covered quite a bit of stylistic ground WITHIN RHCP from pure funk to funk rock to soloing, effects/pedals usage, playing both rhythmic and melodic/McCartney-esque roles, even touching on experimental rock playing on the By the Way album in 2002. Allmusic remarked that he and John Frusciante "push and pull, rave and rumble, lie back and rock out -- pretty much spit out anything they can do on their instruments over the course of 28 songs" on 2006's Stadium Arcadium. The song "Hard to Concentrate" on that album sees Flea playing basically a latin accompaniment on what sounds like - probably isn't, but definitely sounds to my ear like upright.

Flea also played with the guy profiled in the movie The Soloist, the violin guy from LA. That takes a certain willingness to experiment, obviously! (And a big heart, something Flea has shown he has time and time again...though this is kinda off topic)

Anyway, I also have strong doubts about whether Rocco would win influence against Flea. I suspect he wouldn't actually.

StuBass wrote:
Ariel...hope you're feeling better. Don't tighten that G string so much and you won't get popped in the eye again. Stay away from those ER's.


Haha I'm good now, thanks. Really nasty stomach flu...really nasty..but all better now

beaverteeth92 wrote:
Is Chris Wolstenholme good enough for Top 100 yet?


I'd think so, though I really don't know his playing at all. Macca outright told the press that he was impressed with the dude's playing, and that doesn't happen too often. "Hysteria" is pretty famous and cool.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Bass Guitarists
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 8:19 pm 
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Questions about placements...

(No, I haven't forgotten about Mr Miller...I just haven't figured out where to put him yet. What do you think SSOYD?)

WHY IS DAVE LARUE SO HIGH

Should Aston jump into the 20s?

Where should Oteil drop to? 40s? 50s? 60s?

Shouldn't Bootsy raise somewhat?

Ssoyd can you give a basic explanation on Bogert? I definitely envision him in the 20s or 30s or even higher but I don't know quite enough about him yet.

And finally...what's the deal w George Porter Jr. He was on the cover of Bass Player and I don't know jack about 'im!!!

There's some of my major concerns about the top 50 as it stands, shoot


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Bass Guitarists
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 9:30 pm 
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I suppose I'll defer the Flea debate to you guys and your knowledgable opinions. As I still see it though, on bass guitar there's basicaly Jamerson,Entwistle, Bruce, Graham in rock/pop...Jaco, Stanley, and Victor in cross genre and then "everyone else". Flea in my opinion is one of "everyone else" with placements and criteria open to much debate.

Family Man...perhaps somewhere in the 20's?

My point on Odum is that he was a significant part of J.B's funk evolution. Papas Got A Brand New Bag was a new and fresh style in funk bass syncopation.

Watts, like I said is real good for what he does. Versatility is not his strong asset.

Bootsy...Many see him higher than I would probably rank him. Low 30's seems a good fit to me although I know that others may disagree.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Bass Guitarists
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 8:35 am 
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Ariel wrote:
Ssoyd can you give a basic explanation on Bogert? I definitely envision him in the 20s or 30s or even higher but I don't know quite enough about him yet.


Bogert was one of the first "technical" bassists. He was admittedly influenced by James Jamerson but adapted the style to the Hard Rock/Psychedelic movement of the 60's. He burst into prominence with the Vanilla Fudge. His Recorded playing on the Fudge albums was revolutionary enough but he took it to another level live wowing British musicians when Fudge toured there. The psychedelic movement encouraged over indulgence as you can see from the following video but Bogert's playing is impressive even by today's standards. Back then nobody came close and that includes Bruce, Entwistle and Squire.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_aWFaZgwerY

Here is a more restrained version from the first Fudge album 1967. Notice how Bogert locks in with Carmine Appice, the drummer. It is from the Appice/Bogert combo that I learned how to play off the drums. Side note, John Bonham freely admitted that Appice was an important influence.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LdLRoOYk ... re=related

Here's some more for your enjoyment:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Yl8u2vGuwc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQ5jOxaa ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-9Jx3PN9KM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zk7uOssKWu4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkN68N1Y ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7RLcW07 ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7RLcW07vAA

The last one is from the Fudge's Renaissance album, probably their best even if it was a commercial failure.

After Fudge Bogert and Appice played with Jeff Beck and Cactus.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkiEUkqM0oA&feature=fvst
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8p1B24B3 ... re=related

More info below:

http://www.timbogert.com/bogertb.htm

Interesting quote from Billy Sheehan:

Music Street Journal: "You have always been a very innovative bassist. Who were the bass players that you looked up to in the early days?"

Billy Sheehan: "Paul Samuel Smith and Tim Bogert were probably two of the biggest influences - both of them were. Paul Samuel Smith played with The Yardbirds, and he was kind of an unsung hero. Everybody talks about Jeff Beck, Jimmy Page and Eric Clapton coming through The Yardbirds, but Paul Samuel-Smith really did a lot if interplay with all the guitarists in the band. He was one of the first guys who had a real trebly tone where you could hear his notes really good, also a super deep bass tone. He had a lot of tone variation. He really worked along with - in conjunction with - the guitarists. He was kind of an inspiration to me early on. Tim Bogert also - he was a real renegade. He would move way, way far away from his standard root, note-wise - really took some chances as a player, which I thought was really cool. When I met him years later and asked him about it, he basically said he was doing a psychedelic version of Jamie Jamerson. So, it all comes around."


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Bass Guitarists
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 6:30 pm 
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StuBass wrote:
I suppose I'll defer the Flea debate to you guys and your knowledgable opinions. As I still see it though, on bass guitar there's basicaly Jamerson,Entwistle, Bruce, Graham in rock/pop...Jaco, Stanley, and Victor in cross genre and then "everyone else". Flea in my opinion is one of "everyone else" with placements and criteria open to much debate.


Heh, I wasn't trying to tell you to shut up or anything. You really ought to check out some of the links Ssoyd posted at any rate...good bass playing

You forgot someone in rock...well a few 'must mention's', Squire and Macca

And in cross genre how could YOU forget Marcus?!?!

StuBass wrote:
Family Man...perhaps somewhere in the 20's?


That's what I was thinking, I mean there's just no way he could reasonably be behind Will Lee right?

StuBass wrote:
My point on Odum is that he was a significant part of J.B's funk evolution. Papas Got A Brand New Bag was a new and fresh style in funk bass syncopation.


Mmm interesting

StuBass wrote:
Watts, like I said is real good for what he does. Versatility is not his strong asset.


Aye

StuBass wrote:
Bootsy...Many see him higher than I would probably rank him. Low 30's seems a good fit to me although I know that others may disagree.


I suspect he'll get a raise, in part because this list in the past hasn't taken into account him being THE pedal use guy when it comes to bass...

In other news, I think Nate East still needs to fall some more. Thoughts?

Anyway, I'll get to the Bogert stuff later...thanks for the detailed explanation Ssoyd (no sarcasm)


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Bass Guitarists
PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:20 pm 
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I'm sure you know I've never been one to just "shut up" Ariel, so I certainly didn't take it that way LOL. I just don't personally see Flea breaking into the top 10 (and I have heard some RHCP stuff) but I don't take his placement personally. He has excellent skills, but he innovated virtually nothing and his influence is derived from what he channeled through others before him, refined to his genre (whatever that is) and passed on. The only way I see Flea in the top 10 is if massive amounts of pot smoking becomes a new criteria :facepalm: . I defer to you and Ssoyd on this one because you're both knowledgable and probably speak with bass fans that I'm not real familiar with.

I might have missed a couple in my TOP shelf players. Once again though...Maccas massive influence was virtually channeled through what he evolved through Jamerson..just to a new set of listeners. Squire...possible and Miller perhaps...although once again, he wasn't really the "first" at anything.

Don't sell Will Lee short. He's a monster...highly skilled and versatile, and influences lots of bassists through his massive exposure.


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