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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Metal Songs
PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 3:21 am 
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Lyrical quality is determined by:
-Wit
-Storytelling
-Imagery
-Originality
-Social Consciousness

Musical composition is determined by:
Creativity
-Initial: How unique the song was for its time
-Lasting: How unique the song remained over time
Versatility
Complexity

Maddolis wrote:
Musical and lyrical "quality" shouldn't be a part of the criteria.

It is stated above: m and l Q are less important than 3 major criteria. However, they're very helpful in this list. There would be too many 'ties' without it. And yes, Hallowed wins with Paranoid in both of them.

dmille wrote:
I am not the one who put the list together.

Sorry to say, but you're annoying. Everyone can come here and say: 'explain me why War Pigs is above Victim of Changes and then explain why Hammer Smashed Face is higher than For Whom the Bell Tolls'. And that's why conclusion comes: give me decent arguments and make good comparison if you want some changes in the list.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Metal Songs
PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 3:40 am 
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He may be annoying, but I think he's got a point here.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Metal Songs
PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 1:39 pm 
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He made a point?


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Metal Songs
PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 11:35 pm 
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MJ7 wrote:
dmille wrote:
I am not the one who put the list together.

Sorry to say, but you're annoying. Everyone can come here and say: 'explain [to] me why War Pigs is above Victim of Changes and then explain why Hammer Smashed Face is higher than For Whom the Bell Tolls'. And that's why conclusion comes: give me decent arguments and make good comparison if you want some changes in the list.



I didn't ask for a change in the list, I asked for an explanation on the reasoning for the order. I guess saying that I am annoying is easier than discussing the issue on its merits.

"Hallowed" not only beats "Paranoid", but every other heavy metal tune ever recorded? Impact, influence and popularity?
Impact? As a part of Iron Maiden's UK chart topping Number of the Beast, hell yes. But as an individual song? Seems to me that "Run to the Hills" or the title track had more impact.

Now I'm always being told that Black Sabbath was the only "metal" band of the early 70s. Then that would mean Paranoid is the only "metal" album of the 70s to hit number one in the UK and "Paranoid" is the only "metal" song of the 70s to hit the UK top ten.

I am also being told that they weren't any other "metal" bands until the emergence of the NWOBHM. "Paraniod" being on its own for 10 years means it is the most popular, most influential and most impactful song of the 70s; within metal or otherwise. How can ANY other metal song compare to that?


Last edited by dmille on Thu Nov 04, 2010 4:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Metal Songs
PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 11:42 pm 
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Quote:
Now I'm always being told that Black Sabbath was the only "metal" band of the early 70s. Then that would mean Paranoid is the only "metal" album of the 70s to hit number one in the UK and "Paranoid" is the only "metal" song of the 70s to hit the UK top ten.

I am also being told that they weren't any other "metal" bands until the emergence of the NWOBHM. "Paraniod" being on its own for 10 years means it is the most popular, most influential and most impactful song of the 70s; within metal or otherwise. How can ANY other metal song compare to that


I can see why you would've heard that, but it is quite wrong.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Metal Songs
PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 3:33 am 
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Sherick wrote:
Quote:
Now I'm always being told that Black Sabbath was the only "metal" band of the early 70s. Then that would mean Paranoid is the only "metal" album of the 70s to hit number one in the UK and "Paranoid" is the only "metal" song of the 70s to hit the UK top ten.

I am also being told that they weren't any other "metal" bands until the emergence of the NWOBHM. "Paraniod" being on its own for 10 years means it is the most popular, most influential and most impactful song of the 70s; within metal or otherwise. How can ANY other metal song compare to that


I can see why you would've heard that, but it is quite wrong.


This.
Victim of Changes being a good example of another great 70s metal work.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Metal Songs
PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 7:49 am 
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Quote:
I didn't ask for a change in the list

Yeah, right. You proved it with your last post.
Quote:
I guess saying that I am annoying is easier than discussing the issue on its merits.

MJ7 wrote:
Besides - if you don't agree - YOU should make proper argument. Thanks.

MJ7 wrote:
give me decent arguments and make good comparison if you want some changes in the list.

That's why I think you're annoying.
Quote:
Impact? As a part of Iron Maiden's UK chart topping Number of the Beast, hell yes. But as an individual song? Seems to me that "Run to the Hills" or the title track had more impact.

Your 'impact' is mine 'initial popularity'. And in deed, both RttH and # wins in initial popularity with Hallowed.
Quote:
"Paraniod" being on its own for 10 years means it is the most popular, most influential and most impactful song of the 70s;

If Paranoid had so much musical impact then why metal spread it's wings in 80s and not earlier? Where is the influence of Paranoid in 70s if it was 'on its own'? You are talking only about popularity right now.


I'll try to make full comparison at the weekend.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Metal Songs
PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 7:54 am 
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You folks are gonna have to help me out here. You tell me I'm wrong but you don't tell me where I got it wrong. Sabbath wasn't the only "metal" band of the early 70s? Judas Priest is always being cited as the only other TROO metal band of the 70s. And I said Sabbath was alone until the emergence of the NWOBHM. And Priest was a part of that (the earliest).

I see that "Stargazer" is rated number 11. So I am guessing that Rainbow is also "considered" a metal band now.

So if Sabbath wasn't alone in the early 70s; tell me who else topped the UK album chart in the 70s and put a "metal" tune into the UK top ten...

When I hear Impact, I think immediate. When I hear Influence, I think long term. Popularity pretty much defines itself until you start qualifying it by saying "within the world of metal".

"Victim of Changes" a good example of great 70s metal work? It is a kick @ss song, so that is difficult to disagree with on it's surface. But I refuse to believe that you fellers are this superficial.

I've always said that popularity, impact and influence are interdependent. If no one is buying the music, then who is listening to it? If no one is listening to it, how much impact and influence can it really have?

Is "Victim of Changes" a popular song within the world of metal? Yeah, 30+ years after the fact. But what about when it came out? It was just another track on just another album that didn't sell for sh!t.

"Paranoid" is also a popular song within the world of metal and otherwise as well. But it was a popular song from the day was released. It's impact was immediate. It's influence is beyond questioning.

As I said previously, "Hallowed" was popular as a part of The Number of the Beast. TNOTB topped the UK album chart at the height of the NWOBHM. That's major impact, as an album. On the other hand, Sad Wings of Destiny didn't sell then and it still hasn't sold that much even today. "But dude, Sad Wings is kvlt!"

Seems to me that this is just an arbitrary list of someone's favorite songs with an afterthought criteria to justify it.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Metal Songs
PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 9:12 am 
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You're taking only INITIAL popularity and LASTING popularity issues. And no, popularity=/=impact and popularity=/=influence.

Quote:
As I said previously, "Hallowed" was popular as a part of The Number of the Beast.

No. At least not only, as you suggested saying above.

Quote:
Seems to me that this is just an arbitrary list of someone's favorite songs with an afterthought criteria to justify it.

Stop crying about your disability to make some real arguments, kid.


MJ7 wrote:
I'll try to make full comparison at the weekend.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Metal Songs
PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 9:24 am 
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MJ7 wrote:
Quote:
I didn't ask for a change in the list

Yeah, right. You proved it with your last post.


Uh, I proved it with my 1st post when I didn't ask for the list to be changed. I know better than to bother asking for a change in any of the metal lists from dealing with the previous mods. I mean in order for a song to be included on this list the band has to be considered a "metal" band. Am I correct?

Quote:
Quote:
Impact? As a part of Iron Maiden's UK chart topping Number of the Beast, hell yes. But as an individual song? Seems to me that "Run to the Hills" or the title track had more impact.
Your 'impact' is [my] 'initial popularity'. And in deed, both RttH and # wins in initial popularity with Hallowed.


My impact? I didn't set the criteria. As I have said before, IMO popularity, impact and influence are intertwined

Quote:
Quote:
"Paraniod" being on its own for 10 years means it is the most popular, most influential and most impactful song of the 70s
If Paranoid had so much musical impact then why [did] metal spread it's wings in 80s and not earlier? Where is the influence of Paranoid in 70s if it was 'on its own'? You are talking only about popularity right now.


Well, see that's where I have a fundamental disagreement with this mods on this website. I don't agree with Sabbath was the only "metal" band of the early 70s. I was merely going by the "criteria" of the forum. IMO heavy metal spread its wings in 1969.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Metal Songs
PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 9:49 am 
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MJ7 wrote:
You're taking only INITIAL popularity and LASTING popularity issues. And no, popularity=/=impact and popularity=/=influence.


Did I say popularity = impact or did I say they were interdependent?

Quote:
Quote:
As I said previously, "Hallowed" was popular as a part of The Number of the Beast.
No. At least not only, as you suggested saying above.


Popularity can be judged in two ways. 1) An album or a single either makes the charts or it doesn't. It either racks up gold & platinum sales or it doesn't. 2) It is a concert favorite that remains in a band's playlist tour after tour after tour.

TNOTB, the album, debuted at number one on the UK album charts and it hit a respectable 33 on the US chart. That is where "initial popularity" and impact go hand-in-hand. If people are buying an album, that means that they are listening to it.

It eventually went platinum in the US and the UK. That is where "lasting popularity" will go hand-in-hand with influence. The more people listen to an album (or song) over time, the more influence it will have over time.

(EDIT) The studio version of "Hallowed" was not released as a single in 1982. That is why I say that it was popular as a part of TNOTB. But I can say the same thing about "Invaders" and "Gangland". All three are kick@ss "metal" songs, but it was "Run to the Hills" that hit number 7 on the UK singles chart, not "Hallowed".

Now I have seen Maiden in concert a few times. Every time folks in the crowd were calling for "Hallowed" and they always played it somewhere in their set. But they also played "Run" and "Number" as well.


Last edited by dmille on Tue May 20, 2014 10:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Metal Songs
PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 12:03 pm 
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dmille wrote:
Uh, I proved it with my 1st post when I didn't ask for the list to be changed.

Know the term 'implication'?
Quote:
My impact? I didn't set the criteria.

Criteria sent via PM. You should know them already tho.
dmille wrote:
Did I say popularity = impact or did I say they were interdependent?

Your arguments about impact and influence are similar: 'That is where "initial popularity" and impact go hand-in-hand' or 'It's influence is beyond questioning'.


Stop bullshitting and start making real arguments.

Btw - http://www.metalkingdom.net/album/6834_iron_maiden_hallowed_be_thy_name


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Metal Songs
PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 2:07 pm 
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MJ7 wrote:
dmille wrote:
Uh, I proved it with my 1st post when I didn't ask for the list to be changed.

Know the term 'implication'?
Quote:
My impact? I didn't set the criteria.

Criteria sent via PM. You should know them already tho.
dmille wrote:
Did I say popularity = impact or did I say they were interdependent?

Your arguments about impact and influence are similar: 'That is where "initial popularity" and impact go hand-in-hand' or 'It's influence is beyond questioning'.

Stop bullshitting and start making real arguments.

Btw - http://www.metalkingdom.net/album/6834_iron_maiden_hallowed_be_thy_name


A live version 11 years after the fact? Now who is bullshitting? I meant that the studio version was never released as a single and you knew what I meant.


Last edited by dmille on Thu Nov 04, 2010 4:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Metal Songs
PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 2:35 pm 
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Yeah MJ, Hallowed wasn't even a single. I mean...heh...come on


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Metal Songs
PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 6:07 pm 
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So is everyone gonna ignore the fact that dmille makes good and relevant points? It was silly when he was active and people were bullshitting him for little reason, and it is definately silly now, when he rarely posts.

Without contributing much towards the sake of the argument, I tend to agree that "Paranoid" is a greater metal song.


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