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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Debut Albums
PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 12:45 am 
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Brett Alan wrote:
Brian wrote:
I'd say Jeff Buckley's Grace album probably belongs on the list more than Big Star or the Modern Lovers.


See, other people have said that before, and I think it was on the list at one point...but no one ever gave me a good reason. If acclaim were a criterion, I can see why it would be on. But it's obviously not much on the popularity,


It's more popular than the Big Star or the Modern Lovers, at least the Buckley charted.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Debut Albums
PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2011 2:10 pm 
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Brett Alan wrote:
Brian wrote:
I'd say Jeff Buckley's Grace album probably belongs on the list more than Big Star or the Modern Lovers.


See, other people have said that before, and I think it was on the list at one point...but no one ever gave me a good reason. If acclaim were a criterion, I can see why it would be on. But it's obviously not much on the popularity, and no one's been able to tell me who it influenced. So help me out. (And if I did put it on, which of those two would you drop?)

I'm not a big Buckley fan at all. I only like 2-3 songs. But I know he influenced Chris Martin (Coldplay) and Thom Yorke in the way they sing. I don't remember who else, but I know he influenced other very big artists. Jeff Buckley made it cool to sing in a super high voice like with falsetto and stuff.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Debut Albums
PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2011 4:27 pm 
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Johnny wrote:
Jeff Buckley made it cool to sing in a super high voice like with falsetto and stuff.


Where have you been?

A Falsetto was made cool 60 years ago by people like Clyde McPhatter, Maithe Marshall and Frankie Lymon, and later on by Frankie Valli and the Delfonics and Stylistics, and many others.

I suppose you only think it's cool when some white rock guitar player does it?


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Debut Albums
PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2011 5:52 pm 
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Brett Alan wrote:
Brian wrote:
I'd say Jeff Buckley's Grace album probably belongs on the list more than Big Star or the Modern Lovers.


See, other people have said that before, and I think it was on the list at one point...but no one ever gave me a good reason. If acclaim were a criterion, I can see why it would be on. But it's obviously not much on the popularity, and no one's been able to tell me who it influenced. So help me out. (And if I did put it on, which of those two would you drop?)


Buckley's album went gold, and as Bruce said, it charted, so it beats the other 2 albums in popularity. I don't think any of these 3 albums is all that influential, but I'm having trouble seeing any influence in the Modern Lovers album, while the other 2 can probably credited with a little, if not much. So while I'm not sure, I'd probably drop the Modern Lovers album.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Debut Albums
PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2011 6:29 pm 
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Brian wrote:
Brett Alan wrote:
Brian wrote:
I'd say Jeff Buckley's Grace album probably belongs on the list more than Big Star or the Modern Lovers.


See, other people have said that before, and I think it was on the list at one point...but no one ever gave me a good reason. If acclaim were a criterion, I can see why it would be on. But it's obviously not much on the popularity, and no one's been able to tell me who it influenced. So help me out. (And if I did put it on, which of those two would you drop?)


Buckley's album went gold, and as Bruce said, it charted, so it beats the other 2 albums in popularity. I don't think any of these 3 albums is all that influential, but I'm having trouble seeing any influence in the Modern Lovers album, while the other 2 can probably credited with a little, if not much. So while I'm not sure, I'd probably drop the Modern Lovers album.


That Modern Lovers album was strictly a cult item.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Debut Albums
PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2011 7:22 am 
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Bruce wrote:
Johnny wrote:
Jeff Buckley made it cool to sing in a super high voice like with falsetto and stuff.


Where have you been?

A Falsetto was made cool 60 years ago by people like Clyde McPhatter, Maithe Marshall and Frankie Lymon, and later on by Frankie Valli and the Delfonics and Stylistics, and many others.

I suppose you only think it's cool when some white rock guitar player does it?

You suppose very wrongly, and that's quite a dumb assumption to make. I didn't say he was the first in history to sing in a falsetto, or the first popular act to do so. I'm just saying he brought this to a new generation that wasn't alive 60 years ago, that saw the 'grunge' style take over and suddenly this falsetto came out of nowhere and did something totally new to what was popular at the time. And that has been recognized by some of the most important bands today (Coldplay, Radiohead, etc).

Coldplay: http://www.nme.com/news/coldplay/41730

Radiohead: According to what I've read, their song 'Fake Plastic Trees' was recorded right after they went to a Jeff Buckley gig, and that's where Thom Yorke defined his vocal style for which he is most known. I couldn't find a direct link, but you can certainly see the influence.

Muse: http://www.heyreverb.com/2010/10/04/lon ... road-muse/

Incubus: The lead singer said his favorite artist is Jeff Buckley and that he's influenced their carreer.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Debut Albums
PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2011 9:45 am 
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Johnny wrote:
Bruce wrote:
Johnny wrote:
Jeff Buckley made it cool to sing in a super high voice like with falsetto and stuff.


Where have you been?

A Falsetto was made cool 60 years ago by people like Clyde McPhatter, Maithe Marshall and Frankie Lymon, and later on by Frankie Valli and the Delfonics and Stylistics, and many others.

I suppose you only think it's cool when some white rock guitar player does it?

You suppose very wrongly, and that's quite a dumb assumption to make. I didn't say he was the first in history to sing in a falsetto, or the first popular act to do so. I'm just saying he brought this to a new generation that wasn't alive 60 years ago, that saw the 'grunge' style take over and suddenly this falsetto came out of nowhere and did something totally new to what was popular at the time.


So, you're saying that Buckley should get credit for doing something that had been around already for decades, merely because the people who were influenced by what he did are ignorant of rock and roll history?


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Debut Albums
PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2011 6:53 pm 
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Bruce wrote:
Johnny wrote:
Bruce wrote:
Johnny wrote:
Jeff Buckley made it cool to sing in a super high voice like with falsetto and stuff.


Where have you been?

A Falsetto was made cool 60 years ago by people like Clyde McPhatter, Maithe Marshall and Frankie Lymon, and later on by Frankie Valli and the Delfonics and Stylistics, and many others.

I suppose you only think it's cool when some white rock guitar player does it?

You suppose very wrongly, and that's quite a dumb assumption to make. I didn't say he was the first in history to sing in a falsetto, or the first popular act to do so. I'm just saying he brought this to a new generation that wasn't alive 60 years ago, that saw the 'grunge' style take over and suddenly this falsetto came out of nowhere and did something totally new to what was popular at the time.


So, you're saying that Buckley should get credit for doing something that had been around already for decades, merely because the people who were influenced by what he did are ignorant of rock and roll history?


Yes. Isn't that what is being taken into consideration? Impact, influence, etc? Well Jeff Buckley had tons of those.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Debut Albums
PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2011 7:13 pm 
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Johnny wrote:
Yes. Isn't that what is being taken into consideration? Impact, influence, etc? Well Jeff Buckley had tons of those.


I don't think influence goes to imitators. For instance, the Stones don't get influence points if people who heard their version of "Little Red Rooster" didn't happen to know the Howlin' Wolf version. The influence all goes back to Howlin' Wolf.

Giving Buckley infuence points for singing in a falsetto is insane. Rock and roll artists have been singing in a falsetto since the music first started.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Debut Albums
PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2011 7:42 pm 
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Bruce wrote:
So, you're saying that Buckley should get credit for doing something that had been around already for decades, merely because the people who were influenced by what he did are ignorant of rock and roll history?


1.) You know literally nothing about the people who he influenced, so how can you so confidently say they know nothing about rock music history, especially considering that it has nothing to do with what we're arguing? And that's pretty rich, considering you know jack about anything to do with music after 1975 [over HALF of rock's history], other than what you can pull off Wikipedia - a source which you use constantly to provide info to try and back up your points but which you ridicule others for using. It's remarkable how you'll turn back on yourself in every way possible to try and win an argument.

2.) Yeah, the falsetto had been around for decades, but practically nobody was using it when Buckley became popular, and he helped bring it into the alternative rock landscape, hugely influencing Thom Yorke of Radiohead, Chris Martin of Coldplay & Matt Bellamy of Muse, amongst others - huge names in music from the last 15 years of music. And they sung that way after hearing JEFF. It was JEFF who inspired them to sing that way. Not any black people from the 50's who used falsetto. Not Nusret Fateh Ali Khan, who Buckley listed as his biggest vocal influence. It was JEFF who did it. So just because some people did it back when rock started, doesn't mean Buckley loses any influence or significance.

Bruce wrote:
I don't think influence goes to imitators. For instance, the Stones don't get influence points if people who heard their version of "Little Red Rooster" didn't happen to know the Howlin' Wolf version. The influence all goes back to Howlin' Wolf.

Giving Buckley infuence points for singing in a falsetto is insane. Rock and roll artists have been singing in a falsetto since the music first started.

Do you even know how to debate? Are you seriously suggesting, that if Artist A influences Artist B and then Artist B influences Artist C, then all the influence credit goes to Artist A? Wow. If you laid out that idea in any debate center or to any music historian, you'd be laughed out of the room. In regards to your Stones/Wolf example, let's say Mick Jagger heard "Little Red Rooster" and thought "wow, this is a pretty good song" and so the Stones lay down their version to show respect to Howlin' Wolf. Then some young kid in the 60's hears the Stones version and thinks "Wow! This is a killer record! I wanna make my own band" and proceeds to do that. Are you trying to say that Howlin' Wolf inspired the kid to start a band? Ridiculous. Go back to selling records on eBay, old man. You know nothing about debating or music after 1975, so you are way out of your league here.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Debut Albums
PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2011 8:00 pm 
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Machine Head wrote:
Do you even know how to debate? Are you seriously suggesting, that if Artist A influences Artist B and then Artist B influences Artist C, then all the influence credit goes to Artist A?


If artist B influences artist C by doing a version of a song in the same way that Artist A did the same song, then yes. That's the sytem that is used by me and sampson, and I believe most other editors on the site.

If a bunch of guys start a doo wop group because they heard Sha Na Na do "Get A Job" on their TV show, the influence does not go to Sha Na Na. That would be like giving the influence to a DJ because the guys started a group because they heard the DJ play "Get A Job" on the radio. You don;t get influence for merely passing a long a prior concept or a prior sound.

Machine Head wrote:
Wow. If you laid out that idea in any debate center or to any music historian, you'd be laughed out of the room.


I'm a music historian, and so are other editors on the site, and nobody is laughing.

Machine Head wrote:
In regards to your Stones/Wolf example, let's say Mick Jagger heard "Little Red Rooster" and thought "wow, this is a pretty good song" and so the Stones lay down their version to show respect to Howlin' Wolf. Then some young kid in the 60's hears the Stones version and thinks "Wow! This is a killer record! I wanna make my own band" and proceeds to do that. Are you trying to say that Howlin' Wolf inspired the kid to start a band?


If they started a band only because of that song, then yes.

Machine Head wrote:
Ridiculous. Go back to selling records on eBay, old man. You know nothing about debating or music after 1975, so you are way out of your league here.


I never stopped selling records so i don't have to "go back" to it. I can do both, and I say that Jeff Buckey gets no credit for getting anybody to sing with a falsetto. There are tons of classic records all through rock history where people sing with a falsetto.



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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Debut Albums
PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2011 8:14 pm 
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Actually, there's direct influence and indirect influence. Why shouldn't Buckley get credit for introducing the falsetto to a whole new generation of singers? That influence is direct, while the early singers you gave influenced the ones Buckley influenced indirectly, since they were undoubtedly an influence on Buckley. By your system, all of the influence in rock goes to whoever started rock. Since only a handful of guys can benefit from or even be affected by the influence criterion as you define it, why not dump it?

Your logic is horrible at some points, honestly.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Debut Albums
PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2011 8:15 pm 
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Johnny wrote:
You suppose very wrongly, and that's quite a dumb assumption to make. I didn't say he was the first in history to sing in a falsetto, or the first popular act to do so. I'm just saying he brought this to a new generation that wasn't alive 60 years ago,


Maybe you missed records like this that were around in the same generation as when buckley made records.



Last edited by Bruce on Sun Dec 25, 2011 8:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Debut Albums
PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2011 8:17 pm 
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Deany wrote:
Actually, there's direct influence and indirect influence. Why shouldn't Buckley get credit for introducing the falsetto to a whole new generation of singers?


Because he didn't "introduce" the falsetto to shit. Guys like Prince and many others who were big in the 80s and 90s were singing with falsetto a lot.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Debut Albums
PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2011 8:21 pm 
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Bruce wrote:
Johnny wrote:
You suppose very wrongly, and that's quite a dumb assumption to make. I didn't say he was the first in history to sing in a falsetto, or the first popular act to do so. I'm just saying he brought this to a new generation that wasn't alive 60 years ago,


Maybe you missed records like this that were around in the same generation as when buckey made records.



That song was released 8 years before Grace. A lot happened in those 8 years, so I don't you can put them in them in the same generation. The breakthrough of grunge in '91-'92 comes to mind.

Bruce wrote:
Deany wrote:
Actually, there's direct influence and indirect influence. Why shouldn't Buckley get credit for introducing the falsetto to a whole new generation of singers?


Because he didn't "introduce" the falsetto to shit. Guys like Prince and many others who were big in the 80s and 90s were singing with falsetto a lot.


But in those days, it wasn't the popular style of singing. The advent of grunge had pushed MJ, Prince, and other falsetto users out of the limelight. Jeff Buckley brought falsetto back in. I think the vocalists mentioned (Thom Yorke, Chris Martin, etc.) actually cite Buckley as an influence. Can't argue with that.


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