Just had a gander - they lost 3-1 to Juve in the semis in 72-73 - what do you mean by him being unlucky?

It was 3-2 on aggregate actually and the referee in the away leg was heavily criticised for his performance. Suggestions that he'd been bribed (admittedly Clough led those calls ). I believe if memory serves, he was later thrown out of football for improper conduct but I'd need to look into it again.

Sorry about that one, Nick. I obviously meant '62.

I may have said this before, but I think it's true with both Clough and Shankly as well as Eric Cantona, Freddie Flintoff, Ian Holloway, Muhammed Ali and many others, but the British media and public do have a tendency to big up the legacy anyone who is a "character" and provides them with a load of unfunny one-liners, even more so if they are "political incorrect," (i.e. the Jeremy Clarkson disease of getting a bunch of Daily Mail readers on your side because you're not afraid to be "politically incorrect.") whereas ignoring equally or more great figures because they didn't.

It's not that Clough or Shankly weren't great managers, because they clearly were, it's that their legacy seems to get talked about and hyped a lot more than say, Bob Paisley's or Alf Ramsey's does, simply because of their "character" or whatever you want to call it, when Paisley was supposedly a very shy person and Ramsey was very aloof and hated the media and press conferences, but none of that has absolutely anything to do with their managerial ability (or ability in whatever sporting field they are in).

Personally, I can't stand Clough's and Shankly's interviews one-liners, most of them were rubbish and awfully unfunny and it annoys me that people still constantly use them today, when even if they were true back in the day, they have little relevance in the modern game. I've already said I think exactly the same about Holloway's interviews.

Hmm, it says 3-1 on wiki. Might you be thinking of Leeds' Cup Winners Cup final against Milan?

Spot the odd one out here.

I think Derby won the home leg 1-0 after going down 3-1 away. I could be wrong though. Will have another look at me books.

EDIT: Wiki's correct, it was 0-0 back at the Baseball Ground.

Disagree, I find plenty of Clough's one liners very funny still, though I can certainly see why people wouldn't like them.
But I agree with the overall point you're making about those characters that get promoted and those that don't by the press.

I agree with Avery here re the one liners, I find them in general unfunny and usually just something that was said to be deliberately controversial. Clough in particular I found to be a buffoon, a great manager though. As for Shankly's statement "football is not a matter of life or death....etc", what a load of crap.
Avery you could add Alex Higgins to that earlier list, what a wanker he was.

Anyway regarding Football Pantheon, very good list although I agree Clough is too high, Mourinho miles too high, Michels too low and i'm not sure about the calculation thing they done. Very very good work though.
The teams lists were great too.

Shankly was worse than Clough at it, not just with that awful "matter of life and death" quote but also with all those anti-Everton quotes and quotes about how players must be "manly". I just find it all a bit cringe-worthy myself.

I think that Graham Taylor needs to be on this list

Nope.

Nope???!! What do you mean, nope???!!!

Can't believe Wenger is at 62. Come on, really?!

Come on Taylor definitely deserves it having introduced pressing to the English game

I really don't think Graham Taylor introduced pressing to the English game. Even if he did, I really don't think he deserves a place on this list.