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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Songwriters
PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 8:23 am 
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In light of Dylan's huge album successes and his consistency, Dylan should win popularity. He's also stood the test of time better, definitely. Chuck Berry peaked relatively early in his career and has been in decline since. Not to say Dylan's greatest success wasn't early, but the popularity of his releases has stayed much more level.

Edit- And yes, Bob Dylan definitely wins the tiebreaker.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Songwriters
PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 9:36 am 
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a_man_named_gray wrote:
Chuck Berry peaked relatively early in his career


He did peak early, he started in 1955 and his greatest year was 1958, but he has not been in decline ever since. After 4 pretty barren years as far as hit (60-63), part of which he was in jail, he roared back with a huge year in 1964 (Nadine, You Never Can Tell, No Particular Place To Go, Promised Land) and then of course resurfaced with a #1 single in 1972.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Songwriters
PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 9:43 am 
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Brett Alan wrote:
[ I can't think of too many versions of his post-1964 material, for example.


I don't think it matters when his most copied material comes from as long as it's there. One I forgot that is done a lot is "Promised Land."


In 1964 Johnny Rivers released his live album In Action including this song.
In 1971 Johnnie Allan released a cajun version in the US. It was released in 1974 in the UK.
In 1972 Freddy Weller released a version on an album of the same name. It was a Top 5 country hit.
In 1972 The band Juicy Lucy recorded a version on their album Pieces.
In 1972 Dave Edmunds recorded a cover on the release his album Rockpile, released also as a single in 1972, it reached number 5 in the Australian charts.
From 1972 to 1995 the Grateful Dead covered this song extensively with vocals by rhythm guitarist Bob Weir. The version from Steal Your Face is noted for its driving cowbell-dominated beat.
In 1973 the Canadian-American rock group The Band recorded "Promised Land" for their sixth studio LP Moondog Matinee.
In December 1973, Elvis Presley recorded a powerful, driving version. Presley's version of "Promised Land" was released as a single on September 27, 1974. It peaked at number 14 on the charts in the fall of 1974.[citation needed] It was included on his 1975 album Promised Land. The Presley version was used in the soundtrack of the 1997 motion picture Men in Black.
In 1974 James Taylor recorded a version on his album Walking Man.
In 1977 it was recorded by country singer Billy "Crash" Craddock on his album Live!.
In 1979 Bill Haley & His Comets performed the song live with vocals by former Sha Na Na member Mal Gray.
In 1982 Meat Loaf sang the song on Saturday Night Live. After covering Johnny B. Goode throughout the late 70s, he performed this song regularly throughout the early 80s. He stopped its run on his set list when he started touring in support of the Bad Attitude album. In 1983 he recorded it for his Midnight at the Lost and Found album.
In 2007 Geno Delafose released a zydeco version on his album Le Cowboy Creole.
In 2009 W.A.S.P. recorded a version of this song on the album Babylon.[1]


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Songwriters
PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 9:47 am 
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Bruce wrote:
He did peak early, he started in 1955 and his greatest year was 1958, but he has not been in decline ever since. After 4 pretty barren years as far as hit (60-63), part of which he was in jail, he roared back with a huge year in 1964 (Nadine, You Never Can Tell, No Particular Place To Go, Promised Land) and then of course resurfaced with a #1 single in 1972.


GENERALLY, he has became less popular. He never came close to becoming as popular as he was in his prime. His productivity was pretty sporadic. And not having any real success 1972 is still a long time, especially when compared to Dylan, who released a hit album in 2008.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Songwriters
PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 9:50 am 
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Deany wrote:
So, here's the comparison so far:

Popularity: ...?
Acclaim: Dylan
Influence: Berry

Honestly, the closest I think Berry comes in this, if ever, is a tie; Dylan easily wins the tiebreaker criteria, in my opinion. Correct me if I'm wrong though. Obviously I'm leaning a bit on Dylan, but I've heard all of Berry's big songs, and I don't see how he's even nearly as diverse as Dylan. Also, popularity's Dylan, right? I'm not so sure.


I think Dylan is a greater "songwriter" for sure. Lots more people have been influenced by his songwriting than by Chuck's songwriting. Now if you want to talk about influence in general without just concentrationg on songwriting Chuck takes that I'd say because of the guitar style that was so significant.

Here's where I have both of them on the 300 greatest popular artists list.

http://digitaldreamdoor.com/pages/best_artistspop.html

1. Beatles
2. Elvis Presley
3. Frank Sinatra
4. Bing Crosby
5. Michael Jackson / Jackson 5
6. Louis Armstrong
7. James Brown
8. Billie Holiday
9. Bob Dylan
10. Johnny Cash
11. Duke Ellington
12. Ray Charles
13. Chuck Berry
14. Hank Williams
15. Aretha Franklin
16. Al Jolson
17. Glenn Miller
18. B.B. King
19. Nat King Cole
20. Rolling Stones
21. Ella Fitzgerald
22. Muddy Waters
23. Stevie Wonder
24. Beach Boys
25. Benny Goodman
26. Charlie Parker
27. Miles Davis
28. Little Richard
29. Louis Jordan
30. John Coltrane
31. Bessie Smith
32. Bob Marley and the Wailers
33. Mahalia Jackson
34. Tommy Dorsey
35. Mills Brothers
36. Led Zeppelin
37. Marvin Gaye
38. Woody Guthrie
39. Jimi Hendrix
40. Billy Murray and the American Quartet
41. Barbra Streisand
42. Jimmie Rodgers
43. Robert Johnson
44. Sam Cooke
45. Bruce Springsteen
46. Queen
47. Abba
48. Pink Floyd
49. Buddy Holly and the Crickets
50. Elton John


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Songwriters
PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 9:53 am 
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I'm happy to see that you're being so objective and helpful here, Bruce. As much shit as you get(and give) around here.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Songwriters
PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 9:55 am 
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a_man_named_gray wrote:
I'm happy to see that you're being so objective and helpful here, Bruce. As much shit as you get(and give) around here.


If you check my numerous lists on the site they are always objective. They have nothing to do though with my personal taste in music, which is mainly what people around here don't like. I don't see why somebody what get upset about another person's personal taste in music.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Songwriters
PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 2:25 pm 
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Bruce wrote:
a_man_named_gray wrote:
I'm happy to see that you're being so objective and helpful here, Bruce. As much shit as you get(and give) around here.


If you check my numerous lists on the site they are always objective. They have nothing to do though with my personal taste in music, which is mainly what people around here don't like. I don't see why somebody what get upset about another person's personal taste in music.


thats one thing i remember from the old forums, you ,todd and sampson were the most objective, although sampson had wierd rankings like the supremes up high, and elvis over the beatles ,in the end who cares where your favorites are on these lists anyways, one of my favorite artists is jorge ben, he is not even on this site ,ha.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Songwriters
PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 8:18 pm 
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Bruce wrote:
Brett Alan wrote:
[ I can't think of too many versions of his post-1964 material, for example.


I don't think it matters when his most copied material comes from as long as it's there. One I forgot that is done a lot is "Promised Land."


You're right that it doesn't matter when the material comes from, but the reason I brought that up is that there's a much greater breadth of Dylan material that gets covered/remade. If we were to conclude that Dylan's classic material and Berry's get recorded about the same amount, then the fact that Dylan's written another hundred or so songs which all have been recorded at least a couple of other times is significant.

Also, while you're of course right that Chuck had a number one hit in 1972, he didn't write it.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Songwriters
PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 8:43 pm 
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Brett Alan wrote:
Also, while you're of course right that Chuck had a number one hit in 1972, he didn't write it.


He claims he did.

Image


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Songwriters
PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2011 4:03 am 
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Bruce wrote:
Deany wrote:
So, here's the comparison so far:

Popularity: ...?
Acclaim: Dylan
Influence: Berry

Honestly, the closest I think Berry comes in this, if ever, is a tie; Dylan easily wins the tiebreaker criteria, in my opinion. Correct me if I'm wrong though. Obviously I'm leaning a bit on Dylan, but I've heard all of Berry's big songs, and I don't see how he's even nearly as diverse as Dylan. Also, popularity's Dylan, right? I'm not so sure.


I think Dylan is a greater "songwriter" for sure. Lots more people have been influenced by his songwriting than by Chuck's songwriting. Now if you want to talk about influence in general without just concentrationg on songwriting Chuck takes that I'd say because of the guitar style that was so significant.

Here's where I have both of them on the 300 greatest popular artists list.

http://digitaldreamdoor.com/pages/best_artistspop.html

1. Beatles
2. Elvis Presley
3. Frank Sinatra
4. Bing Crosby
5. Michael Jackson / Jackson 5
6. Louis Armstrong
7. James Brown
8. Billie Holiday
9. Bob Dylan
10. Johnny Cash
11. Duke Ellington
12. Ray Charles
13. Chuck Berry
14. Hank Williams
15. Aretha Franklin
16. Al Jolson
17. Glenn Miller
18. B.B. King
19. Nat King Cole
20. Rolling Stones
21. Ella Fitzgerald
22. Muddy Waters
23. Stevie Wonder
24. Beach Boys
25. Benny Goodman
26. Charlie Parker
27. Miles Davis
28. Little Richard
29. Louis Jordan
30. John Coltrane
31. Bessie Smith
32. Bob Marley and the Wailers
33. Mahalia Jackson
34. Tommy Dorsey
35. Mills Brothers
36. Led Zeppelin
37. Marvin Gaye
38. Woody Guthrie
39. Jimi Hendrix
40. Billy Murray and the American Quartet
41. Barbra Streisand
42. Jimmie Rodgers
43. Robert Johnson
44. Sam Cooke
45. Bruce Springsteen
46. Queen
47. Abba
48. Pink Floyd
49. Buddy Holly and the Crickets
50. Elton John


Honestly, that list is probably my favorite on the site. It's just so well done, and I've discovered loads of new artists. Great work.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Songwriters
PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 2:21 am 
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Bruce wrote:
Brett Alan wrote:
Also, while you're of course right that Chuck had a number one hit in 1972, he didn't write it.


He claims he did.


Sorry to come back to this so late, but something occured to me.

Of course, it's correct that Berry took a credit for that song, even though it seems substantially similar to what Dave Bartholomew had recorded much earlier. But it reminds me of a song that Berry did NOT take a credit for.

"Run Rudolph Run".

We were talking about it as though it were Berry's composition, and certainly we all think of it that way. Check out a recording of the song, though, and you'll find it's credited to Johnny Marks and Marvin Brodie.

Johnny Marks wrote a number of classic Christmas songs including "Rudolph The Red-Nosed Reindeer". None of his work that I'm familiar with sounds at all like "Run Rudolph Run", though. To me, the most logical conclusion is that he's being credited because he had some rights to the Rudolph character (although the character was actually invented by his brother-in-law, Robert L. May, for a book distributed by Montgomery Ward) rather than for actually writing "Run Rudolph Run".

I have no idea who Marvin Brodie was, and Googling doesn't turn up anything to speak of. I suppose it could be a pseudonym for Chuck himself. I mean...it sure sounds like the stuff Chuck was writing at the time, and while he did the occasional remake (mostly old standards), at that point in his career he wasn't using other writers' material much at all.

Anyone have any hard information on any of this?


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Songwriters
PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 7:21 pm 
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Number 93 should be revised as Morrissey/Marr


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Songwriters
PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 6:22 pm 
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I think the reason why it's listed as it is is that Marr didn't co-write Morrissey's solo work, and the listing is based partly on that.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Songwriters
PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2011 11:51 pm 
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Bruce wrote:
I think Dylan is a greater "songwriter" for sure. Lots more people have been influenced by his songwriting than by Chuck's songwriting. Now if you want to talk about influence in general without just concentrationg on songwriting Chuck takes that I'd say because of the guitar style that was so significant.



So would you agree that Dylan should be above Chuck Berry?


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