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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Songwriters
PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 6:24 pm 
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Quit reposting the same argument.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Songwriters
PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 6:34 pm 
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mrsamtotheg wrote:
one after 909 was later beatles , get back was later beatles , revolution was later beatles, come together was later beatles, back in the ussr was later beatles , even im so tired so chuck berry esque was later beatles.

Yes, but they sound little like Chuck Berry, except perhaps for One After 909, and even then including loud guitars on a song didn't mean it was Berry's influence. Hell, claiming "Revolution" helps my cause, as it is mostly lyrically based around protesting, something that is definitely Dylanesque.

mrsamtotheg wrote:
those short guitar driven rock songs sound like they were written in a style similiar to wait for it......chuck berry , anyone who takes the guitar uses it for an intro riff then brings the rest of the band into the song is taking as song writing trick from chuck berry

Well if that's the case then Chuck just stole from old jazz musicians, as Louis Armstrong's famous song 'West End Blues' starts off with a short trumpet intro [like Chuck's guitar intros] and then brings the rest of the band into the song [like Chuck!]. And btw, those songs actually sound little like Chuck. Especially songs like Come Together and I Want To Hold Your Hand. Why did you bring those up?

mrsamtotheg wrote:
I know you AOR guys hate giving credit to any non white pre AOR or post AOR musician, but the world wont end if you give a little credit to chuck berry for his blatant contributions, I promise your favorite AOR songs wont sound worse if you do.

Oh please, continue to make baseless generalisations about people who you don't know because you don't like their position. :roll: If us 'AOR guys' hate giving credit to any non-white pre AOR musician, why don't you head on over to the 'Greatest Rock Artists' thread, where Bob Dylan is rated lower than wait for it... James Brown, a black pre-Aor musician. And Chuck Berry's "blatant contributions" in songwriting amount to what exactly? A few cover songs and George Thorogood?

mrsamtotheg wrote:
again how where those guitar based songs written, I can connect songs like I am the walrus to dylan but you cant connect 19th nervous breakdown to chuck or maybe you can but you wont admit it, maybe you love mr zimmerman too much on a personal level or something, btw my favorite songwriter is lennon mcartney and jorge ben, do you know who he is, you see him on this list, do you see me pitchin for him, he writes songs in a way in my opinon bob dylan and chuck berry can never match.

Oh please, more baseless accusations and generalisations! I love them! I never said I couldn't connect any of those songs to Chuck. And claiming Chuck as the template for every short, high-energy, guitar-based rock song is ridiculous. What about Bo Diddley? And some of Elvis' songs? And Buddy Holly? Or any of the big 50's artists? Hell, a lot of the early stuff of the Stones is throwaway to old blues songs, not Chuck.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Songwriters
PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 6:46 pm 
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a_man_named_gray wrote:
Quit reposting the same argument.


kiss my ass , I have yet to hear a decent rebuttal to the same arguement so until then I will bring up the same points.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Songwriters
PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 6:48 pm 
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I suppose that definitely counts as outright provocation huh?


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Songwriters
PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 6:49 pm 
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You've heard enough to know that Berry's influence advantage is not great enough to eclipse the massive advantage Dylan has in acclaim.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Songwriters
PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 7:11 pm 
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Machine Head wrote:
I suppose that definitely counts as outright provocation huh?



again
how do you explain the fact you never posted in the greatest song writers thread til I showed up and every post you made in that thread was about or to me, or the fact you were never in the nba until after I posted and low and behold the thread was about or to me, or the fact you have one post in the bass thread prior to me entering, and when I post something completely unrelated to what you posted , you responded to me, I never once asked you anything on this thread that you do frequent alot, and you have post alot of posts about or to me, you are doing a bad job at pretending not to be following and stalking me rofl, are you that guy at the club that follows the girls to that bathroom and waits outside for them while they are in the bathroom , I promise insult I heaved towards a poster on here ,was AFTER provacation, I have pitched arguements for the things I think are out of rank,you have been desperately trying to get my attention since I have arrived , do I remind you of your father or something.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Songwriters
PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 7:58 pm 
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Well damn, you sure showed me. You have some real world-class debating skills man! Can't believe how you worked that rebuttal up. It's gonna be a challenge taking you on, Sam!


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Songwriters
PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 11:48 pm 
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mrsamtotheg wrote:
Machine Head wrote:
mrsamtotheg wrote:
oh yeah the beatles, if you look at songs like I saw her standing there, I want to hold your hand ,come together , revolution, back in the usa, one after 909,get back, roll over beethoven,etc, yeah those are dylanesque right

He's talking about their later career, eg. Sgt. Pepper's, Revolver, etc. Their early stuff takes a cue from Berry, sure, but Buddy Holly was way more influential on the Beatles than Berry was.



mrsamtotheg wrote:
and rock n roll by led zep yeah that was all dylan right there totally went away from that chuck berry sound, as mc5 back in the usa cover and american ruse their own original song , as well the sound of the ramones,punks biggest band , sounds exactly like dylan, berrys sound totally was extinct by the 70's , hendrix cover of johnny b goode, was played bob dylan style too.

See, now you're the one getting worked up by the lists. Dylan has more influence than Berry, doesn't mean that Berry's style died after Dylan or that Berry's songs were never covered. Bringing up a bunch of short, guitar-driven rock and roll songs/covers by other famous artists doesn't help your point and it doesn't bring down Brett Alan's.


mrsamtotheg wrote:
was redone ina dylanesque kinda way, even guys like the stooges that song raw power, just that guitar is so clearly bob dylan , even buddy hollys oh boy, the way he strums the guitar verses and the tempo, it was inspired by dylan before he came out, and even something like welcome to the jungle , I mean the way it starts with a guitar riff as an intro then fades in the rest of the band its sounds so similiar to something chuck has done like brown eyed handsome man ,same can be said for you shook me all night long and highway to hell by ac dc , 19th nervous breakdown by the stones using a guitar riff an intro its probaly no big deal for those records though, cuz for the rest of those records you hear that dominate bob dylan influence,right, even in a bob dylan song like obviously 5 believers ,and tombstone blues sound like those guitar riffs are something bob dylan thought up on his own, Im sure he didnt get that from chuck but from his own creative genius,right.

I know you're getting your panties in a knot because people are daring to question your beloved Chuck Berry, but this paragraph is ridiculous. Did you even pay attention to what Brett said or are you just bringing up guitar-based songs and trying to claim that it's all Chuck?





one after 909 was later beatles , get back was later beatles , revolution was later beatles, come together was later beatles, back in the ussr was later beatles , even im so tired so chuck berry esque was later beatles.


Actually, "One After 909" was early Beatles from a songwriting standpoint. It was written in 1963, and recorded at that time, but not used. They redid it for Let It Be but that's not when they wrote it.

"Revolution" is much more influenced by Dylan than by Berry. "Come Together" was influenced by both. "I'm So Tired"--how is that "Chuck Berry esque AT ALL? I think that's very Dylan-influenced. Sure, some of the later songs were influenced by Berry, but I don't know that "Get Back" (or, for that matter, "I Want To Hold Your Hand" or even "I Saw Her Standing There") were specifically influenced by Berry. "ISHST", for example, is more Little Richard than anything else. (And I hope I don't have to explain why including "Roll Over Beethoven" as an example of the Beatles' songwriting was ridiculous.)

There are Beatles songs that are very clearly influenced by Dylan--"You've Got To Hide Your Love Away", "Nowhere Man", and "The Fool On The Hill", for example. Perhaps more importantly, Dylan pushed them in a general way to explore new avenues, especially lyrically. Yes, their music was very strongly rooted in 50s rock at the start, and yes, those roots always remained an important part of their sound. And, yes, Berry was part of that foundation--but so were Leiber/Stoller, Little Richard, Buddy Holly, and others.


mrsamtotheg wrote:
those short guitar driven rock songs sound like they were written in a style similiar to wait for it......chuck berry , anyone who takes the guitar uses it for an intro riff then brings the rest of the band into the song is taking as song writing trick from chuck berry ,


That's not really a songwriting trick. It's more of a production trick.

mrsamtotheg wrote:
I know you AOR guys hate giving credit to any non white pre AOR or post AOR musician, but the world wont end if you give a little credit to chuck berry for his blatant contributions, I promise your favorite AOR songs wont sound worse if you do.


Know what you're talking about. There are definitely some folks around here with that bias, but I'm not one of them. I've spent a lot of time arguing for higher placements on lists for Berry, Ray Charles, Aretha, and so on and so on. I've taken a lot of crap for putting Run-DMC in the top ten of one of my lists, and responded by putting Biggie in the top twenty to boot. I *love* Chuck Berry. And I think he's unquestionably among the greatest songwriters in rock history. But Dylan is even greater.

I could respond to your list of random examples ("Rock And Roll" by Zep doesn't sound like Dylan) with an equally random list (yeah, listen to Leonard Cohen, feel the Chuck Berry vibe), but what would be the point?


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Songwriters
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 3:58 am 
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I like how this guy keeps discriminating between AOR and non-AOR as colors. Also, I realize how trivial it is to award influence to a seminal artist. It's like saying every video game was greatly influenced by Pong, or every movie was greatly influenced by Roundhay Garden Scene. It's ridiculous to perceive that seminal artists still deserve a large chunk of credit for a later artist's work. Indirect influence, for sure, but not every artist who writes short, guitar-driven songs was influenced directly by Chuck. Most modern pop-rock bands write short, guitar-driven rock songs, and they probably haven't even heard of Chuck Berry, but singer-songwriters have all heard of Dylan if they write remotely like him.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Songwriters
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 2:05 pm 
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Brett Alan wrote:
mrsamtotheg wrote:
Machine Head wrote:
mrsamtotheg wrote:
oh yeah the beatles, if you look at songs like I saw her standing there, I want to hold your hand ,come together , revolution, back in the usa, one after 909,get back, roll over beethoven,etc, yeah those are dylanesque right

He's talking about their later career, eg. Sgt. Pepper's, Revolver, etc. Their early stuff takes a cue from Berry, sure, but Buddy Holly was way more influential on the Beatles than Berry was.





mrsamtotheg wrote:
and rock n roll by led zep yeah that was all dylan right there totally went away from that chuck berry sound, as mc5 back in the usa cover and american ruse their own original song , as well the sound of the ramones,punks biggest band , sounds exactly like dylan, berrys sound totally was extinct by the 70's , hendrix cover of johnny b goode, was played bob dylan style too.

See, now you're the one getting worked up by the lists. Dylan has more influence than Berry, doesn't mean that Berry's style died after Dylan or that Berry's songs were never covered. Bringing up a bunch of short, guitar-driven rock and roll songs/covers by other famous artists doesn't help your point and it doesn't bring down Brett Alan's.


mrsamtotheg wrote:
was redone ina dylanesque kinda way, even guys like the stooges that song raw power, just that guitar is so clearly bob dylan , even buddy hollys oh boy, the way he strums the guitar verses and the tempo, it was inspired by dylan before he came out, and even something like welcome to the jungle , I mean the way it starts with a guitar riff as an intro then fades in the rest of the band its sounds so similiar to something chuck has done like brown eyed handsome man ,same can be said for you shook me all night long and highway to hell by ac dc , 19th nervous breakdown by the stones using a guitar riff an intro its probaly no big deal for those records though, cuz for the rest of those records you hear that dominate bob dylan influence,right, even in a bob dylan song like obviously 5 believers ,and tombstone blues sound like those guitar riffs are something bob dylan thought up on his own, Im sure he didnt get that from chuck but from his own creative genius,right.

I know you're getting your panties in a knot because people are daring to question your beloved Chuck Berry, but this paragraph is ridiculous. Did you even pay attention to what Brett said or are you just bringing up guitar-based songs and trying to claim that it's all Chuck?





one after 909 was later beatles , get back was later beatles , revolution was later beatles, come together was later beatles, back in the ussr was later beatles , even im so tired so chuck berry esque was later beatles.


Actually, "One After 909" was early Beatles from a songwriting standpoint. It was written in 1963, and recorded at that time, but not used. They redid it for Let It Be but that's not when they wrote it.


"Revolution" is much more influenced by Dylan than by Berry. "Come Together" was influenced by both. "I'm So Tired"--how is that "Chuck Berry esque AT ALL? I think that's very Dylan-influenced. Sure, some of the later songs were influenced by Berry, but I don't know that "Get Back" (or, for that matter, "I Want To Hold Your Hand" or even "I Saw Her Standing There") were specifically influenced by Berry. "ISHST", for example, is more Little Richard than anything else. (And I hope I don't have to explain why including "Roll Over Beethoven" as an example of the Beatles' songwriting was ridiculous.)

There are Beatles songs that are very clearly influenced by Dylan--"You've Got To Hide Your Love Away", "Nowhere Man", and "The Fool On The Hill", for example. Perhaps more importantly, Dylan pushed them in a general way to explore new avenues, especially lyrically. Yes, their music was very strongly rooted in 50s rock at the start, and yes, those roots always remained an important part of their sound. And, yes, Berry was part of that foundation--but so were Leiber/Stoller, Little Richard, Buddy Holly, and others.




mrsamtotheg wrote:
those short guitar driven rock songs sound like they were written in a style similiar to wait for it......chuck berry , anyone who takes the guitar uses it for an intro riff then brings the rest of the band into the song is taking as song writing trick from chuck berry ,


That's not really a songwriting trick. It's more of a production trick.


mrsamtotheg wrote:
I know you AOR guys hate giving credit to any non white pre AOR or post AOR musician, but the world wont end if you give a little credit to chuck berry for his blatant contributions, I promise your favorite AOR songs wont sound worse if you do.


Know what you're talking about. There are definitely some folks around here with that bias, but I'm not one of them. I've spent a lot of time arguing for higher placements on lists for Berry, Ray Charles, Aretha, and so on and so on. I've taken a lot of crap for putting Run-DMC in the top ten of one of my lists, and responded by putting Biggie in the top twenty to boot. I *love* Chuck Berry. And I think he's unquestionably among the greatest songwriters in rock history. But Dylan is even greater.



I could respond to your list of random examples ("Rock And Roll" by Zep doesn't sound like Dylan) with an equally random list (yeah, listen to Leonard Cohen, feel the Chuck Berry vibe), but what would be the point?


I know about the original one after 909 it was written prior to 1963 it was released in 1963 sounding like chuck berry ,really revolution with its guitar intro and choppy rhythm thats a chuck influenced 50s style song, listen to you cant catch me , the line here comes old flat top came from there the way the verses are sung by lennon he got from chuck berry not dylan for come together, in fact I can see that same song influencing bob dylans tombstone blues, get back has chucks rockabilly rhythm and guitar lead licks thru out whole song ,as for I saw her standing there check out talking to you , the bassline is ISHST, you never even listened enough to chuck berry , anyone who follows him can hear the influence clear as day,its chuck not little richard, listen to too much monkey business sounds like subterrianian homesick blues, it was a forerunner to subterrian , bob dylan himself said so, wow you have never even heard berry apart from probaly 3 songs, you are not even qualified to rank him, buddy hollys oh boy influenced by chuck berry, and back in the usa was inspiration for back in the ussr the beatles themselves said so, surfin usa by the beach boys is sweet little sixteen ,brian wilson himself said so. chuck had a huge influence on the beach boys as well, not so much dylan, the stones hugely influenced by chuck , more so than dylan, and dylan himself was influenced by chuck NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND. The ramones were heavy influenced by chuck too, the stooges ac/dc and mc5 ,just the fact that chuck influenced BOB Dylan and not the other way makes it hard for dylan to rank ahead of him, as for popularity more people are covering chuck songs,like back in the usa, and johnny b goode, than things like desolation row and visions of johanna, Its questionable if that singer songwriter crap james taylor , and joni mitchell were doing is even considered rock, its certainly not more rock than punk.


way to exaggerate dylans influence , paul did not get fool on the hill influences from dylan ,with those simple lyrics, and that emphasis on melody (bob was never that intricate or focused on melody , he put his emphasis on lyrics) I am the walrus is dylan inspired for sure.
your ignorance is showing again, chuck was the rock n roll song writer , elvis put rock on the map , chuck was its song writer in the 50's

what!?, do you play instruments have you ever written a song ,? a production trick is overdubbing ala les paul , or wall of sound ala phil spector, thats a songwriting , you aor guys ignore and the musical aspect or dismass and only emphasis lyrics, we are not arguing greatest lyricists though, if anything the musical aspect is way more important, case in point mas que nada is in portuguese and charted well over here, dispite people not knowing the words, hmm I suppose you think the beatles starting songs off with choruses are production tricks too.

you dont know enough about any of the 50' artists , I know what it is now, its ignorance and biased on your part, I will be arguing for the everly brothers next, I dont expect you to chime in that debate at all.





heres the point , chuck berry wrote the standard rock n roll song, so even if indirectly influenced an artist or a song ,he gets the credit becuase chances are the group that artist was influenced by was influenced by chuck

and btw acclaim isnt that big of a landslide as you think

Of all the early breakthrough rock & roll artists, none is more important to the development of the music than Chuck Berry.
He is its greatest songwriter, the main shaper of its instrumental voice, one of its greatest guitarists, and one of its greatest performers.
Quite simply, without him there would be no Beatles, Rolling Stones, Beach Boys, Bob Dylan, nor a myriad others.
There would be no standard "Chuck Berry guitar intro," the instrument's clarion call to get the joint rockin' in any setting.
The clippety-clop rhythms of rockabilly would not have been mainstreamed into the now standard 4/4 rock & roll beat.
There would be no obsessive wordplay by modern-day tunesmiths; in fact, the whole history (and artistic level)
of rock & roll songwriting would have been much poorer without him. Like Brian Wilson said, he wrote
"all of the great songs and came up with all the rock & roll beats." Those who do not claim him as a
seminal influence or profess a liking for his music and showmanship show their ignorance of rock's development
as well as his place as the music's first great creator. Elvis may have fueled rock & roll's imagery, but Chuck Berry was its heartbeat and original mindset.


John Lennon said it best, "If you were going to give rock & roll another name, you might call it 'Chuck Berry'."

Like Brian Wilson said, he wrote
"all of the great songs and came up with all the rock & roll beats.


Chuck Berry’s vast contribution to the music world is reflected in the plaudits he has won from many of the most well known artists who followed him. As a songwriter, guitarist and performer, he shaped rock and roll and has more than earned his place in the Top 5 of the Rolling Stone list of The Immortals. In 2004 six of his songs found their way onto the magazine’s list of The 500 Greatest Songs

More than any other artist, Chuck Berry cook up the basic recipe for rock 'n roll. It started with the beat: Keith Richards, who should know, has dubbed Berry 'rhythm supreme'. The he created the archetypal electric guitar riff, on which all succeeding riffs are based. He even came up with rock's basic lineup- 'Piano, guitar, bass and drums is rock 'n' roll, says the Wallflowers Jacob Dylan referring to Berry's seminal combo. This disc contains 30 classic songs. The most extensive single disc ever of his greatest hits. Includes every top 10 hit recording from 'Maybellene' to 'Johnny B Goode', to My-Ding-A-Ling'. MCA. 2006.


Robert ChristgauRobert Christgau
Robert Christgau is an American essayist, music journalist, and self-proclaimed "Dean of American Rock Critics".


Theodore Anthony "Ted" Nugent is an American guitarist, musician, vocalist, and activist. From Detroit, Michigan, he originally gained fame as the lead guitarist of The Amboy Dukes, before embarking on a lengthy solo career...
said "If you don't know every Chuck Berry lick, you can't play rock guitar.

so with chuck winning influence and popularity and dylan win acclaim but not in a landside and just the sheer fact that chucks song writing impacted and influenced dylan while NOTHING dylan did influenced chuck, hmm that gives chuck the edge and higher ranking over bob dylan.


Last edited by mrsamtotheg on Tue Nov 22, 2011 2:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Songwriters
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 2:20 pm 
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You are underplaying the importance of the Berry's peers and the importance of pre-rock artists to the standard rock song. You speak as though there were no rock artists before Chuck Berry. Several of the artists you mentioned don't even make music that is very guitar-centric at all. Beatles? There really is not one main influence to their music. And your comments about Dylan not winning acclaim by that much are cowshit. He didn't sacrifice melody for lyrics, how the fuck did you even get that? And

a_man_named_gray wrote:
Quit reposting the same argument.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Songwriters
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 2:24 pm 
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Deany wrote:
Most modern pop-rock bands write short, guitar-driven rock songs, and they probably haven't even heard of Chuck Berry,


Probably haven't heard of Chuck Berry?

Prepsoterous. This implies that most current pop-rock bands have not heard of Chuck Berry. That's highly unlikely, especially if they have any guitarists in the group. There's at least a couple of Berry songs that are among the first rock things that they would be learning on trhe guitar. People don't just get handed a guitar for the first time and then start playing in the style that they use professionally. Learning to play is a process that takes years, and along the way virtually every rock guitarist since the 60s has played Johnny B. Goode, even if it's just by himself in his bedroom as a 14 year old.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Songwriters
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 2:26 pm 
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This is true.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Songwriters
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 2:35 pm 
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mrsamtotheg wrote:
[so with chuck winning influence and popularity and dylan win acclaim but not in a landside and just the sheer fact that chucks song writing impacted and influenced dylan while NOTHING dylan did influenced chuck, hmm that gives chuck the edge and higher ranking over bob dylan.


How do you figure that Chuck wins popularity?

Dylan has certainly sold more records, and as a songwriter, his songs have certainly sold more records than Berry's songs, and I'm sure are a more valuable publishing catalog when you consider huge hits like "Mr. Tambourine man" by the Byrds and the Peter, Paul and Mary versions of Dylan songs, and some others. Chuck probably has had more different songs that have been recorded and performed by more different people. You don;t see too many people doing versions of "Visions Of Johanna" or "Desolation Row," but there have been more huge hits by oether people doing Dylan songs than Chuck Berry songs.

Chuck's never sold all that many albums while Dylan has sold tens of millions, maybe over 100 million.

I don't think Chuck wins popularity,


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Songwriters
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 2:43 pm 
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Bruce wrote:
mrsamtotheg wrote:
[so with chuck winning influence and popularity and dylan win acclaim but not in a landside and just the sheer fact that chucks song writing impacted and influenced dylan while NOTHING dylan did influenced chuck, hmm that gives chuck the edge and higher ranking over bob dylan.


How do you figure that Chuck wins popularity?

Dylan has certainly sold more records, and as a songwriter, his songs have certainly sold more records than Berry's songs, and I'm sure are a more valuable publishing catalog when you consider huge hits like "Mr. Tambourine man" by the Byrds and the Peter, Paul and Mary versions of Dylan songs, and some others. Chuck probably has had more different songs that have been recorded and performed by more different people. You don;t see too many people doing versions of "Visions Of Johanna" or "Desolation Row," but there have been more huge hits by oether people doing Dylan songs than Chuck Berry songs.

Chuck's never sold all that many albums while Dylan has sold tens of millions, maybe over 100 million.

I don't think Chuck wins popularity,


oh I see you are going by sales, I am going by how well would they do today, while neither of them with their style would dominate todays music scene, with hip hop inspired music dominating, certainly berry would hold up better not by alot than dylan, you can hear rock songs to this day with rock guitar riffs and intros and simple chord progressions etc. certainly more than songs with harmonicas and acoustic guitars about protesting or nonsensical lyrics.

Hmm how would rank them bruce , dylan and chuck .


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