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 Post subject: Re: 300 Greatest Artists of Popular Music
PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2011 2:28 pm 
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Chris' version was a noble first attempt, but I do think that the list could use some fine tuning. For one thing, I think Chris wanted to make sure he didn't discriminate against female artists, so some of the women ended up too high. I think generally he placed the jazz artists better than he placed the rock artists. Some suggestions follow for adjusting some of the rock artist placements.

The rock artists in the 54-82 part of the list are:

54. Joni Mitchell
55. Otis Redding
57. Madonna
58. Run DMC
66. Diana Ross & the Supremes
69. Prince
72. U2
73. Smokey Robinson & the Miracles
76. The Drifters/Clyde McPhatter/Ben E. King
77. Paul Simon & Art Garfunkel
82. The Temptations

I'd say a better ordering of these artists would be:

Madonna
Diana Ross & the Supremes
Prince
U2
Run DMC
The Temptations
Otis Redding
Smokey Robinson & the Miracles
The Drifters/Clyde McPhatter/Ben E. King
Paul Simon & Art Garfunkel
Joni Mitchell

I wouldn't have Mitchell in the top 100. And I'd say Bonnie Raitt (at #137) is too high.

Of the following 9 artists, I think the last 5 artists should all be ahead of the first 4 artists:

179. Patti Smith
181. Velvet Underground
182. Grandmaster Flash & the Furious Five
186. The Pretenders

187. Curtis Mayfield & the Impressions
193. REM
204. The Clovers
205. Deep Purple
206. The Beastie Boys

Also, I don't see how Ricki Lee Jones makes the list but Al Green doesn't. Bruce, I didn't give any reasons for any of this, but I think there's a good chance that you were going to make many of these changes anyway. If you have any questions, let me know.

Also, I think at this point it's appropriate to add Eminem. I think he's the greatest rock artist of the '00s, and most of those I've talked to who know the decade well agree with that. Being greatest rock artist for a decade should get the artist on the list, and in addition to the '00s, Eminem had an important album in 1999.


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 Post subject: Re: 300 Greatest Artists of Popular Music
PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2011 7:31 pm 
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Brian wrote:
Chris' version was a noble first attempt, but I do think that the list could use some fine tuning. For one thing, I think Chris wanted to make sure he didn't discriminate against female artists, so some of the women ended up too high. I think generally he placed the jazz artists better than he placed the rock artists. Some suggestions follow for adjusting some of the rock artist placements.

The rock artists in the 54-82 part of the list are:

54. Joni Mitchell
55. Otis Redding
57. Madonna
58. Run DMC
66. Diana Ross & the Supremes
69. Prince
72. U2
73. Smokey Robinson & the Miracles
76. The Drifters/Clyde McPhatter/Ben E. King
77. Paul Simon & Art Garfunkel
82. The Temptations

I'd say a better ordering of these artists would be:

Madonna
Diana Ross & the Supremes
Prince
U2
Run DMC
The Temptations
Otis Redding
Smokey Robinson & the Miracles
The Drifters/Clyde McPhatter/Ben E. King
Paul Simon & Art Garfunkel
Joni Mitchell

I wouldn't have Mitchell in the top 100. And I'd say Bonnie Raitt (at #137) is too high.


I don't agree witrh how you ordered the above, but I do agree that Joni Mitchell does not belong in the top 100. Raitt is off the list entirely.


Brian wrote:
Of the following 9 artists, I think the last 5 artists should all be ahead of the first 4 artists:

179. / OFF Patti Smith
181. / 279 Velvet Underground
182. / 203 Grandmaster Flash & the Furious Five
186. / 282 The Pretenders

187. / 115 Curtis Mayfield & the Impressions
193. / 219 REM
204. / 152 The Clovers
205. / 247 Deep Purple
206. / 205 The Beastie Boys


I did the revision before I saw this post, and except for Flash the four artists you listed that are too high are now all below the five artists, and Patti Smith is totally off the list. I listed the new position for each artist in RED.

Brian wrote:
Also, I don't see how Ricki Lee Jones makes the list but Al Green doesn't.


Agreed for sure, Jones is off and Green is now on at # 195.

Brian wrote:
Also, I think at this point it's appropriate to add Eminem. I think he's the greatest rock artist of the '00s, and most of those I've talked to who know the decade well agree with that. Being greatest rock artist for a decade should get the artist on the list, and in addition to the '00s, Eminem had an important album in 1999.


For sure. Eminem is on now at # 164.

I think there are 41 new entries in all. I just sent Lew the revision and I will post it here in the next post.


Last edited by Bruce on Sat Oct 08, 2011 9:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 300 Greatest Artists of Popular Music
PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2011 7:40 pm 
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Here is the revision. New entries are indicated in RED.

1 ¦ Beatles
2 ¦ Elvis Presley
3 ¦ Frank Sinatra
4 ¦ Bing Crosby
5 ¦ Michael Jackson / Jackson 5
6 ¦ Louis Armstrong
7 ¦ James Brown
8 ¦ Billie Holiday
9 ¦ Bob Dylan
10 ¦ Johnny Cash
11 ¦ Duke Ellington
12 ¦ Ray Charles
13 ¦ Chuck Berry
14 ¦ Hank Williams
15 ¦ Aretha Franklin
16 ¦ Al Jolson
17 ¦ Glenn Miller
18 ¦ B.B. King
19 ¦ Nat King Cole
20 ¦ Rolling Stones
21 ¦ Ella Fitzgerald
22 ¦ Muddy Waters
23 ¦ Stevie Wonder
24 ¦ Beach Boys
25 ¦ Benny Goodman
26 ¦ Charlie Parker
27 ¦ Miles Davis
28 ¦ Little Richard
29 ¦ Louis Jordan
30 ¦ John Coltrane
31 ¦ Bessie Smith
32 ¦ Bob Marley and the Wailers
33 ¦ Mahalia Jackson
34 ¦ Tommy Dorsey
35 ¦ Mills Brothers
36 ¦ Led Zeppelin
37 ¦ Marvin Gaye
38 ¦ Woody Guthrie
39 ¦ Jimi Hendrix
40 ¦ Billy Murray and the American Quartet
41 ¦ Barbra Streisand
42 ¦ Jimmie Rodgers
43 ¦ Robert Johnson
44 ¦ Sam Cooke
45 ¦ Bruce Springsteen
46 ¦ Queen
47 ¦ Abba
48 ¦ Pink Floyd
49 ¦ Buddy Holly and the Crickets
50 ¦ Elton John
51 ¦ Temptations
52 ¦ Drifters / Clyde McPhatter /Ben E. King
53 ¦ Prince
54 ¦ The Who
55 ¦ Tony Bennett
56 ¦ Diana Ross and the Supremes
57 ¦ Fats Domino
58 ¦ Otis Redding
59 ¦ Johnny Mathis
60 ¦ U2
61 ¦ Smokey Robinson and the Miracles
62 ¦ Fats Waller
63 ¦ Eric Clapton (solo and with bands)
64 ¦ Mariah Carey
65 ¦ Ink Spots
66 ¦ Count Basie
67 ¦ Howlin' Wolf
68 ¦ Madonna
69 ¦ George Jones
70 ¦ Eagles
71 ¦ Enrico Caruso
72 ¦ Perry Como
73 ¦ Run-D.M.C.
74 ¦ Public Enemy
75 ¦ Paul Whiteman
76 ¦ Dizzy Gillespie
77 ¦ Henry Burr and the Peerless Quartet
78 ¦ Big Joe Turner
79 ¦ Merle Haggard
80 ¦ Scott Joplin
81 ¦ Willie Nelson
82 ¦ Jimmy Dorsey
83 ¦ Paul Simon & Art Garfunkel
84 ¦ Bee Gees
85 ¦ John Fogerty & Creedence Clearwater Revival
86 ¦ Jerry Lee Lewis
87 ¦ Bo Diddley
88 ¦ Patsy Cline
89 ¦ Andrews Sisters
90 ¦ Everly Brothers
91 ¦ Charles Mingus
92 ¦ Thelonious Monk
93 ¦ R. Kelly
94 ¦ Jay-Z

95 ¦ Eddy Arnold
96 ¦ Garth Brooks
97 ¦ Rod Stewart
98 ¦ David Bowie
99 ¦ Dolly Parton
100 ¦ Jelly Roll Morton
101 ¦ Carter Family
102 ¦ Ike & Tina Turner
104 ¦ Jackie Wilson
104 ¦ Sarah Vaughan
105 ¦ Billy Joel
106 ¦ Bill Monroe
107 ¦ T-Bone Walker
108 ¦ Leadbelly
109 ¦ Bon Jovi
110 ¦ Harry Belafonte
111 ¦ Sly and the Family Stone
112 ¦ Neil Young
113 ¦ Conway Twitty
114 ¦ AC/DC
115 ¦ Curtis Mayfield and the Impressions
116 ¦ Four Tops
117 ¦ Frankie Valli and the Four Seasons
118 ¦ Parliament / Funkadelic / George Clinton
119 ¦ Ozzy Osbourne / Black Sabbath
120 ¦ Doors
121 ¦ Roy Orbison
122 ¦ Bobby Darin
123 ¦ Crosby, Stills and Nash
124 ¦ Isley Brothers
125 ¦ Kinks
126 ¦ Kingston Trio
127 ¦ Fleetwood Mac
128 ¦ Brenda Lee
129 ¦ Dinah Washington
130 ¦ Santana
131 ¦ Police / Sting
132 ¦ Platters
133 ¦ Neil Diamond
134 ¦ Kenny Rogers
135 ¦ Dells
136 ¦ Robins / Coasters
137 ¦ Yardbirds
138 ¦ Metallica
139 ¦ Bill Haley and the Comets
140 ¦ Bobby "Blue" Bland
141 ¦ John Lee Hooker
142 ¦ Stan Getz
143 ¦ Ray Price
144 ¦ Donna Summer
145 ¦ Judy Garland
146 ¦ Buck Owens
147 ¦ Byrds
148 ¦ Wynonie Harris
149 ¦ Sonny Til and the Orioles
150 ¦ Etta James
151 ¦ Harry James
152 ¦ Clovers
153 ¦ Elmore James
154 ¦ Frank Zappa / Mothers Of Invention
155 ¦ Wilson Pickett
156 ¦ Celine Dion
157 ¦ Webb Pierce

158 ¦ Ravens
159 ¦ Soul Stirrers
160 ¦ Chicago
161 ¦ Loretta Lynn
162 ¦ Lester Young
163 ¦ Janis Joplin
164 ¦ Eminem
165 ¦ Grateful Dead
166 ¦ Coleman Hawkins
167 ¦ Paul McCartney and Wings
168 ¦ Ramones
169 ¦ Tammy Wynette
170 ¦ Dean Martin
171 ¦ Art Tatum
172 ¦ Joan Baez
173 ¦ Eric B. and Rakim
174 ¦ John Lennon
175 ¦ Peter, Paul and Mary
176 ¦ Patti Page
177 ¦ Sonny Rollins
178 ¦ Yes
179 ¦ Whitney Houston
180 ¦ Sammy Kaye
181 ¦ Ruth Brown
182 ¦ Pete Seeger and the Weavers
183 ¦ Ernest Tubb
184 ¦ Dionne Warwick
185 ¦ Billy Ward and The Dominoes
186 ¦ Peggy Lee
187 ¦ Sonny Boy Williamson II (Rice Miller)
188 ¦ Van Morrison
189 ¦ Luther Vandross
190 ¦ Earth, Wind and Fire
191 ¦ Charley Patton
192 ¦ Son House
193 ¦ LL Cool J
194 ¦ Cab Calloway
195 ¦ Al Green
196 ¦ Bob Wills and the Texas Playboys

197 ¦ Ethel Waters
198 ¦ Glen Campbell
199 ¦ Moody Blues
200 ¦ Genesis / Phil Collins

201 ¦ Joni Mitchell
202 ¦ Arthur "Big Boy" Crudup
203 ¦ Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five
204 ¦ Gladys Knight and the Pips
205 ¦ Beastie Boys
206 ¦ Linda Ronstadt
207 ¦ Big Bill Broonzy
208 ¦ Martha and the Vandellas
209 ¦ Ornette Coleman
210 ¦ Rudy Vallee
211 ¦ Charles Brown
212 ¦ Mary J. Blige
213 ¦ Jo Stafford
214 ¦ Judy Collins
215 ¦ Staple Singers
216 ¦ Spinners

217 ¦ Little Walter
218 ¦ Lynyrd Skynyrd
219 ¦ REM
220 ¦ The Clash
221 ¦ Henry Mancini
222 ¦ Elvis Costello
223 ¦ Alabama
224 ¦ Janet Jackson
225 ¦ Carole King
226 ¦ Carpenters
227 ¦ Pearl Jam
228 ¦ Van Halen
229 ¦ Outkast
230 ¦ Herbie Hancock
231 ¦ Kool and the Gang
232 ¦ Lonnie Johnson
233 ¦ Tito Puente
234 ¦ N.W.A.
235 ¦ Professor Longhair
236 ¦ Notorious B.I.G.
237 ¦ Lionel Richie / Commodores
238 ¦ Lionel Hampton
239 ¦ The Band
240 ¦ Sonny Boy Williamson I (John Lee Williamson)
241 ¦ Jimmy Reed
242 ¦ Rick Nelson
243 ¦ Connie Francis
244 ¦ Sidney Bechet
245 ¦ Reba McEntire
246 ¦ Ma Rainey
247 ¦ Deep Purple
248 ¦ Barry White
249 ¦ Beyonce
250 ¦ Aerosmith
251 ¦ Jethro Tull
252 ¦ Blind Lemon Jefferson
253 ¦ Herb Alpert and the Tijuana Brass
254 ¦ Guy Lombardo
255 ¦ Emerson, Lake and Palmer
256 ¦ Carl Perkins
257 ¦ Billy Eckstine
258 ¦ Bill Evans
259 ¦ Allman Brothers Band
260 ¦ Iron Maiden
261 ¦ Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers
262 ¦ Sister Rosetta Tharpe
263 ¦ Rosemary Clooney
264 ¦ Shirelles
265 ¦ Art Blakey
266 ¦ Rev. James Cleveland
267 ¦ Tampa Red
268 ¦ Arthur Collins and Byron Harlan
269 ¦ Clara Ward Singers
270 ¦ Talking Heads / David Byrne
271 ¦ Mamas and Papas
272 ¦ Frankie Laine
273 ¦ Lefty Frizell
274 ¦ Radiohead
275 ¦ Ted Lewis

276 ¦ King Crimson
277 ¦ Artie Shaw
278 ¦ Harry MacDonough and the Haydn Quartet
279 ¦ Velvet Underground
280 ¦ Waylon Jennings
281 ¦ Pat Boone
282 ¦ Pretenders
283 ¦ Kate Smith
284 ¦ John Denver
285 ¦ Gene Autry
286 ¦ Lena Horne
287 ¦ 2 Pac
288 ¦ Hank Snow
289 ¦ Kraftwerk

290 ¦ Ben Selvin
291 ¦ O'Jays
292 ¦ Marty Robbins

293 ¦ Roy Acuff
294 ¦ Tennessee Ernie Ford
295 ¦ Blondie
296 ¦ Clifford Brown
297 ¦ Johnnie Ray
298 ¦ Andy Williams
299 ¦ Usher
300 ¦ Daryl Hall & John Oates


Last edited by Bruce on Sun Oct 09, 2011 1:52 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 300 Greatest Artists of Popular Music
PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 8:03 am 
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Are you using the same criteria as Chris F did? I'm asking because Bon Jovi and The Moody Blues seem ridiculously high. Other than that I like the list better than the old one.

Should Caruso really be on here? He did some classical crossover, but I wouldn't consider that popular music, and if he is on the list people like Maria Callas or Luciano Pavarotti should probably be here as well. I'd just take him off.


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 Post subject: Re: 300 Greatest Artists of Popular Music
PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 8:41 am 
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pauldrach wrote:
Are you using the same criteria as Chris F did? I'm asking because Bon Jovi and The Moody Blues seem ridiculously high. Other than that I like the list better than the old one.


My criteria is weighted more towards actual popularity rather than artistic acclaim. People like Odetta are gone. I think Chris overranked some less popular artists like Leadbelly and underranked many huge superstars like Michael Jackson.

pauldrach wrote:
Should Caruso really be on here? He did some classical crossover, but I wouldn't consider that popular music, and if he is on the list people like Maria Callas or Luciano Pavarotti should probably be here as well. I'd just take him off.


Caruso MADE the recording industry. It took off in the early 1900s because people could now hear the great Caruso. You have to realize that at that time there was no other way to hear Caruso unless you saw him in person. No music on radio, nothing. Millions of people around the world bought record players just so they could hear Caruso. Whitburn lists him with 45 pop chart hits in America from 1904 to 1921. "I Pagliacci" was one of the most important records of all time. He had a couple of different versions that were huge hits in 1904-1908. Caruso was on Chris's list already. In those days, opera was popular music. There wasn't a whole lot of other music around on records.

Pavarotti and those other guys never had records that crossed over into the mainstream. Mario Lanza did, and he was considered for the list, but did not quite make it.

I had a feeling I had the Moodys too high. They are listed as the 69th biggest LP act in the history of the American charts. And they were even bigger in England. Still, you're probably right, I have them a bit high.

As for Bon Jovi, they are the biggest grossing live act of the past ten years I believe. They are the #60 act of all time on the American singles charts and are just as big on the LP charts, if not bigger. They might be a little high, but not much.

This article lists Bon Jovi among the biggest selling artists of all time with between 120 and 149 million records sold.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_be ... ic_artists

Thanks for the intelligent comments.


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 Post subject: Re: 300 Greatest Artists of Popular Music
PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 10:40 am 
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Bruce,

Overall, a good list and a more accurate effort than Chris', in my opinion.

By the way, 'Metalicca' should be spelled 'Metallica'.


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 Post subject: Re: 300 Greatest Artists of Popular Music
PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 10:46 am 
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Zach wrote:
Bruce,

Overall, a good list and a more accurate effort than Chris', in my opinion.

By the way, 'Metalicca' should be spelled 'Metallica'.


Thanks Zach. I just gave Lew the correction. The list should be up soon on the main site, and will now have pictures included.


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 Post subject: Re: 300 Greatest Artists of Popular Music
PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 10:49 am 
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Bruce wrote:

The list should be up soon on the main site, and will now have pictures included.


New list is up.

http://digitaldreamdoor.com/pages/best_artistspop.html

Just sent Lew a change. I combined the #277 and #278 artists into one entry, as MacDonough was one of the main guys in that group, and added Artie Shaw.

277. Artie Shaw
278. Harry MacDonough and the Haydn Quartet


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 Post subject: Re: 300 Greatest Artists of Popular Music
PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 2:52 pm 
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Overall, I think this is better than the old list, and I especially like the addition of the pictures to the main page.

Bruce, if you would like to have a thread for this where your list is the first post in the thread, you're welcome to post the thread, and then Chemical Ali or I will sticky the new thread and lock and unsticky this one.


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 Post subject: Re: 300 Greatest Artists of Popular Music
PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 3:09 pm 
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Brian wrote:
Overall, I think this is better than the old list, and I especially like the addition of the pictures to the main page.

Bruce, if you would like to have a thread for this where your list is the first post in the thread, you're welcome to post the thread, and then Chemical Ali or I will sticky the new thread and lock and unsticky this one.


No, it can stay like this, there's not that many posts before you get to the revision.


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 Post subject: Re: 300 Greatest Artists of Popular Music
PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 3:43 pm 
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Bruce wrote:
Thanks for the intelligent comments.

You're welcome. I had a feeling you were giving popularity more importance than many of the other editors which is fine as you're being consequent with it.

I understand you're reasoning for Caruso. I guess it's ok to include the first million-selling superstar of the recording era, although he doesn't necessarily fall into the genre of popular music.


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 Post subject: Re: 300 Greatest Artists of Popular Music
PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 3:57 pm 
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pauldrach wrote:
Bruce wrote:
Thanks for the intelligent comments.

You're welcome. I had a feeling you were giving popularity more importance than many of the other editors which is fine as you're being consequent with it.

I understand you're reasoning for Caruso. I guess it's ok to include the first million-selling superstar of the recording era, although he doesn't necessarily fall into the genre of popular music.


I think you meant "consistent" rather than "consequent."

To me, if it is POPULAR with mainstream people, it is popular music.

Caruso probably belongs here much more than people like Woody Guthrie and Charles Mingus do. At least Caruso actually had records that were hits with mainstream listeners. Mingus never did.

Most music fans who lived through the 60s could not name one record by Mingus.

One of the crazy listings that I thought Chris had on the old list was Phil Ochs. He had a decent cult following for a while, but he was never really popular and his music did not find a later audience either. I can not even fathom including Phil Ochs but leaving out Santana and Jimmy Dorsey and Genesis/Phil Collins and other big acts that were not on the old list.

I realize the new list is still far from perfect. But I think it is a nice step forward from what we had before. And the pictures make it much more attractive. I purposely used entirely different pictures than I did on the "500 Greatest Recordings" list.

I was able to find a suitable color picture of everybody except for Glenn Miller. The only color stuff I saw on him all seemed like drawings rather than actual pictures. The couple that might have actually been color pictures just weren't very good. So I went with that tinted B&W shot that is on there now.


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 Post subject: Re: 300 Greatest Artists of Popular Music
PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 4:02 pm 
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I agree that the list was in need of revision but there are a few problems. Like R. Kelly at #93? Is he really the 93rd most popular artist of all time? Seems to me most people would only remember him by 'I Believe I Can Fly'


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 Post subject: Re: 300 Greatest Artists of Popular Music
PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 4:05 pm 
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Bruce wrote:
I think you meant "consistent" rather than "consequent."

I think I did.

When I think of popular music I tend to think of it as opposed to classical music. You're definition (music that has been popular in the recording era) makes sense as well. Perhaps you could include a short description of the popular music definition you used for this list to prevent similar misunderstandings.


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 Post subject: Re: 300 Greatest Artists of Popular Music
PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 4:13 pm 
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Machine Head wrote:
I agree that the list was in need of revision but there are a few problems. Like R. Kelly at #93? Is he really the 93rd most popular artist of all time? Seems to me most people would only remember him by 'I Believe I Can Fly'


Well, as of the end of 2008 he was the 30th biggest artist of all time on the U.S. pop singles chart for the 1955-2008 period. "Fly" was not even close to being his biggest record either. It was not even a #1 song. He had two records that were each #1 for 4 or more weeks (Bump N grind, I'm Your Angel) and "Ignition" was also bigger than "Fly."


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