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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Female Rock Vocalists
PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 11:30 am 
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pauldrach wrote:
I'm so sick of these guys and posting the same arguments again and again each time a new one comes along. Until one of them has something new to add to the discussion I just wouldn't respond to them at all.


HOOOORAY! You've just summed up the point I am trying to make in one post. Who are you referring to when you say 'these guy's?' the vocalists?. Well FYI I rarely frequent this forum, and happen to disagree with alot of the way the lists are run. If you'd actually read any of my posts, you'd realise my arguments are often about different subject matters.

It's exactly your 'us vs them' ideologies that lead to the stale arguments in the first place.

Georgi, the soul/rap artists that are referred to as rock and roll artists, all referred to themeselves as such. Adele has never been to my knowledge. This weekens the argument somewhat. The science fiction analogy is very valid.

Let's give another example. When preparing for a presentation I made last year I listened to Martin Luther kings 'I had a dream' speech. It influenced me to put forward my ideas, and present them in a persuasive manner. Now that does not make me a black man, or a black rights activist, does it?

Just because one is influenced by something does not mean they become that thing.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Female Rock Vocalists
PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 11:42 am 
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Okay.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Female Rock Vocalists
PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 11:48 am 
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Right I'm gonna try and put my point as simply as possible Georgi. Just because I am discussing the negative side of calling certain types of music rock does not mean you need to bombard me with the same arguments you present when anyone makes a dig at your argument.

I never at any point said that rock music was the guitar stuff as you suggested. I also never disagreed with your point about including lots of artists making the lists interesting. in fact I AGREE WITH IT. However I also see the negative side which is that if you call most music the same thing you end up discussing two vastly different musicians just because of a classification. This is most certainly a con, especially within the vocal framework.

So I'll make the point now, just because I disagree with one area of something you believe in does not mean I think the whole thing is terrible. Life isn't all black and White.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Female Rock Vocalists
PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 12:02 pm 
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Jack wrote:
This is most certainly a con, especially within the vocal framework.


Why is this a con? Shall we just have individual lists for high pitched metal singers, gritty soul singers, crooners and so on?


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Female Rock Vocalists
PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 4:06 pm 
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Jack wrote:
pauldrach wrote:
I'm so sick of these guys and posting the same arguments again and again each time a new one comes along. Until one of them has something new to add to the discussion I just wouldn't respond to them at all.


HOOOORAY! You've just summed up the point I am trying to make in one post. Who are you referring to when you say 'these guy's?' the vocalists?. Well FYI I rarely frequent this forum, and happen to disagree with alot of the way the lists are run. If you'd actually read any of my posts, you'd realise my arguments are often about different subject matters.
It's exactly your 'us vs them' ideologies that lead to the stale arguments in the first place.

You're some guy who brought up the same old discussion with no new argument once again. That's all I said (and that I'm sick of it). I didn't say you were a vocalist or anything.


Jack wrote:
Georgi, the soul/rap artists that are referred to as rock and roll artists, all referred to themeselves as such. Adele has never been to my knowledge. This weekens the argument somewhat. The science fiction analogy is very valid.

I don't think every rap artist thinks of him/herself as a rock artist and it doesn't matter. Anybody who makes rock music is a rock artist. Period.

Jack wrote:
Let's give another example. When preparing for a presentation I made last year I listened to Martin Luther kings 'I had a dream' speech. It influenced me to put forward my ideas, and present them in a persuasive manner. Now that does not make me a black man, or a black rights activist, does it?

Just because one is influenced by something does not mean they become that thing.

In your example you weren't influenced by Martin Luther King's blackness or his political activism but rather by his way of argumentation or something along the lines of that. Somebody who is influenced by Jimi Hendrix' clothing is not (necessarily) a rock artist either.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Female Rock Vocalists
PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 4:48 pm 
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Georgi wrote:
Gregsynthbootlegs wrote:
Georgi wrote:
Gregsynthbootlegs wrote:
How the bloody hell is rap considered ROCK?!?! That's like saying that the sky isn't BLUE!


Read the article bozo.


Yeah, that's one guy's OPINION about it. Doesn't make it true.


Why don't you offer an actual counter-argument to it, instead of stamping your feet on the ground? As far as no one else thinking rap is part of rock, is the Rock n Roll Hall Of Fame good enough for you?

You've got to realise that rock existed before white guys with guitars.


Nice strawman argument.

Rap's earliest origin can be traced back to those "african chants" and rock's earliest origin is the blues. Two DIFFERENT origins. Yes, I KNOW rock existed before "white guys with guitars" (I took a class on the history of rock). As for the rock and roll hall of fame, that's their prerogative--doesn't mean everybody has to go with it.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Female Rock Vocalists
PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 5:01 pm 
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Gregsynthbootlegs wrote:

Nice strawman argument.

Rap's earliest origin can be traced back to those "african chants" and rock's earliest origin is the blues. Two DIFFERENT origins. Yes, I KNOW rock existed before "white guys with guitars" (I took a class on the history of rock). As for the rock and roll hall of fame, that's their prerogative--doesn't mean everybody has to go with it.


Rap's origins are funk and disco, not "those african chants", whatever the hell that means.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Female Rock Vocalists
PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 5:03 pm 
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What is this? People are saying Adele isn't a rock artist?


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Female Rock Vocalists
PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 5:18 pm 
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Gregsynthbootlegs wrote:
Rap's earliest origin can be traced back to those "african chants" and rock's earliest origin is the blues. Two DIFFERENT origins. Yes, I KNOW rock existed before "white guys with guitars" (I took a class on the history of rock). As for the rock and roll hall of fame, that's their prerogative--doesn't mean everybody has to go with it.

That earliest origin thing is bullshit. What do you mean with "earliest origin"? The earliest thing that in some way pointed into the direction that rock would later take? That could be anything. Rock directly evolved from the mix of jazz and blues that was known as jump blues. Rap includes traits that come from outside rock (The Last Poets for instance were not rock artists) but its main ingredients are of rock origin (funk, disco, dub, electronica).


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Female Rock Vocalists
PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 5:22 pm 
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Gregsynthbootlegs wrote:
Rap's earliest origin can be traced back to those "african chants" and rock's earliest origin is the blues. Two DIFFERENT origins.

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Gregsynthbootlegs wrote:
(I took a class on the history of rock)


i'd get your money back


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_music#History

blues had its origin in a mixture of those "african chants" (assuming you mean the distinctive tremolo or cantonization of harmonies in a way different from classical european style; or did you mean the "held note" chorus that we associate in the usa with slave music? the one that horns came to replace), ragtime, marches, irish instrumentation, and myriad european folk storytelling styles.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Female Rock Vocalists
PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 9:46 pm 
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Posts: 596
Georgi wrote:
Gregsynthbootlegs wrote:

Nice strawman argument.

Rap's earliest origin can be traced back to those "african chants" and rock's earliest origin is the blues. Two DIFFERENT origins. Yes, I KNOW rock existed before "white guys with guitars" (I took a class on the history of rock). As for the rock and roll hall of fame, that's their prerogative--doesn't mean everybody has to go with it.


Rap's origins are funk and disco, not "those african chants", whatever the hell that means.


RAPPING = West African griots. They told stories in "rhythm speak." This is the earliest origin for RAPPING (you're confusing that with hip-hop music). The MUSIC of early hip-hop was influenced by disco, funk, and soul records. James Brown can be considered a pioneer for the Hip-Hop genre.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Female Rock Vocalists
PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 9:51 pm 
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pauldrach wrote:
Gregsynthbootlegs wrote:
Rap's earliest origin can be traced back to those "african chants" and rock's earliest origin is the blues. Two DIFFERENT origins. Yes, I KNOW rock existed before "white guys with guitars" (I took a class on the history of rock). As for the rock and roll hall of fame, that's their prerogative--doesn't mean everybody has to go with it.

That earliest origin thing is bullshit. What do you mean with "earliest origin"? The earliest thing that in some way pointed into the direction that rock would later take? That could be anything. Rock directly evolved from the mix of jazz and blues that was known as jump blues. Rap includes traits that come from outside rock (The Last Poets for instance were not rock artists) but its main ingredients are of rock origin (funk, disco, dub, electronica).


Earliest origin: Something that started it all. The art of "rapping" had its earliest origin in African chants (they told stories in rhythmic speaking), the music of hip-hop had its earliest origins in funk, soul, and disco.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Female Rock Vocalists
PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 10:00 pm 
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Posts: 596
Patrick wrote:
Gregsynthbootlegs wrote:
Rap's earliest origin can be traced back to those "african chants" and rock's earliest origin is the blues. Two DIFFERENT origins.

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hahhahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahhaha
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hahhahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahhaha
hahhahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahhaha


hahahah oh my god oh my god,, i can't breathe, i can't breathe

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aaaaahhh

goddamn


Gregsynthbootlegs wrote:
(I took a class on the history of rock)


i'd get your money back


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_music#History

blues had its origin in a mixture of those "african chants" (assuming you mean the distinctive tremolo or cantonization of harmonies in a way different from classical european style; or did you mean the "held note" chorus that we associate in the usa with slave music? the one that horns came to replace), ragtime, marches, irish instrumentation, and myriad european folk storytelling styles.


Try reading the article of "RAPPING" on wikipedia. Those "african chants" were the earliest origin of the art of rapping. I didn't say anything about the origin of BLUES music. I said that ROCK music had its origin in the blues genre. Here's a chart for you:

West African Griot chanting > Basis of the art of RAPPING (not the music)
West African Griot chanting > Blues Music
Blues Music > Rock Music

Soul, funk, and disco > Earliest Hip-hop music


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Female Rock Vocalists
PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 4:25 am 
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Gregsynthbootlegs wrote:
pauldrach wrote:
Gregsynthbootlegs wrote:
Rap's earliest origin can be traced back to those "african chants" and rock's earliest origin is the blues. Two DIFFERENT origins. Yes, I KNOW rock existed before "white guys with guitars" (I took a class on the history of rock). As for the rock and roll hall of fame, that's their prerogative--doesn't mean everybody has to go with it.

That earliest origin thing is bullshit. What do you mean with "earliest origin"? The earliest thing that in some way pointed into the direction that rock would later take? That could be anything. Rock directly evolved from the mix of jazz and blues that was known as jump blues. Rap includes traits that come from outside rock (The Last Poets for instance were not rock artists) but its main ingredients are of rock origin (funk, disco, dub, electronica).


Earliest origin: Something that started it all. The art of "rapping" had its earliest origin in African chants (they told stories in rhythmic speaking), the music of hip-hop had its earliest origins in funk, soul, and disco.

OK, I'll give you that. But what are you trying to prove then? Hip-hop is a rock music style that may include traits from outside rock (rapping). Its musical foundation though can be found within the world of rock music.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Female Rock Vocalists
PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 4:29 am 
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Gregsynthbootlegs wrote:
Blues Music > Rock Music

That'd be too simple. Rock includes elements of more than just one style, otherwise all rock music would have to be considered blues. It originally is a fusion of jazz and blues, and country was also added to the mix in the first half of the 1950's.


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