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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Major League Baseball Players
PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 6:26 am 
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It's definitely true that the Gold Glove does not always reward the best defensive player, but rather the great defensive player with name recognition. The same is true about the All Defensive Team in the NBA.

Mays was a way better defensive player than Ichiro. He also had a few great defensive years before they created the Gold Glove. I would say it's between Mays and Tris Speaker for the best defensive player at that position.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Major League Baseball Players
PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 1:14 pm 
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corrections wrote:
pgm wrote:
corrections wrote:
At one of the least important defensive positions on the field. A gold glove in right field is worth less than a gold glove at many other positions.


True, but a rightfielder's arm is more important than the other outfielders' arms and Ichiro certainly has that. He's arguably the greatest defensive rightfielder ever (well in the AL). Only Roberto Clemente has had more gold gloves at the position and Willie Mays is the only other outfielder with more gold gloves.

Keep in mind that the MLB does not give gold gloves by specific position in the outfield. The voters decided he was one of the top three defensive outfielders in the AL for 10 years.


But keep in mind also that the Gold Glove doesn't always come even close to rewarding the best players and is basically the best defender among name offensive players (of course Ichiro playing an offense plus position that means it is more meritorious than say Jeter winning all the time). But it really isn't close defensively between Mays and Ichiro given that Mays played in bigger parks and had the bigger responsibilities (the Polo Grounds were nuts). I know you know this but my main point bringing it up is that while Centerfield is a lower value defensive position than the infield minus first his defensive value was incredible.

That does seem to be true, but Ichiro might be the exception to the rule; he has been the best right fielder with one of the best arms for a decade (I think he has had the highest runs saved from the position than any other player)


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Major League Baseball Players
PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 1:27 pm 
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Chemical Ali wrote:
corrections wrote:
pgm wrote:
corrections wrote:
At one of the least important defensive positions on the field. A gold glove in right field is worth less than a gold glove at many other positions.


True, but a rightfielder's arm is more important than the other outfielders' arms and Ichiro certainly has that. He's arguably the greatest defensive rightfielder ever (well in the AL). Only Roberto Clemente has had more gold gloves at the position and Willie Mays is the only other outfielder with more gold gloves.

Keep in mind that the MLB does not give gold gloves by specific position in the outfield. The voters decided he was one of the top three defensive outfielders in the AL for 10 years.


But keep in mind also that the Gold Glove doesn't always come even close to rewarding the best players and is basically the best defender among name offensive players (of course Ichiro playing an offense plus position that means it is more meritorious than say Jeter winning all the time). But it really isn't close defensively between Mays and Ichiro given that Mays played in bigger parks and had the bigger responsibilities (the Polo Grounds were nuts). I know you know this but my main point bringing it up is that while Centerfield is a lower value defensive position than the infield minus first his defensive value was incredible.

That does seem to be true, but Ichiro might be the exception to the rule; he has been the best right fielder with one of the best arms for a decade (I think he has had the highest runs saved from the position than any other player)


Well as right fielder I'm guessing that the gold glove may come closer to approximating defensive value since everyone out there (in theory) should be an offense plus player so the only thing left is to look at defense.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Major League Baseball Players
PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 1:52 pm 
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Yeah, i could see that. I think a lot of the time they get the outfield right, but fail pretty badly in the infield


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Major League Baseball Players
PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 2:28 pm 
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pgm wrote:
It's definitely true that the Gold Glove does not always reward the best defensive player, but rather the great defensive player with name recognition. The same is true about the All Defensive Team in the NBA.

Mays was a way better defensive player than Ichiro. He also had a few great defensive years before they created the Gold Glove. I would say it's between Mays and Tris Speaker for the best defensive player at that position.


I'd probs throw Andruw Jones in there as well. At his peak in center he was as good defensively as anyone has been at any position.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Major League Baseball Players
PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 8:48 am 
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I agree. I meant to add a sentence to that exact effect. He's certainly in the discussion.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Major League Baseball Players
PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 9:06 am 
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I know center is arguably only the 5th most important defensive position, but other than shortstop it's my favorite to watch someone play it really well. Honestly, if I had a choice between a gold glover in center and a gold glover at third/second and both were equally talented with the bat, I'm taking the CFer all day. Seeing guys cover all that ground in, out and from left to right, backing up both of his fellow outfielders on every play, backing up 2nd/SS on throws from the catcher, throws from deep center to home etc.- just some of my very fave aspects of the game.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Major League Baseball Players
PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 9:19 am 
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I have a lot of love for the catcher, but otherwise, I agree. Give me a great SS, Catcher and CF and it's great to watch.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Major League Baseball Players
PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 5:01 pm 
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corrections wrote:

But keep in mind also that the Gold Glove doesn't always come even close to rewarding the best players and is basically the best defender among name offensive players (of course Ichiro playing an offense plus position that means it is more meritorious than say Jeter winning all the time). But it really isn't close defensively between Mays and Ichiro given that Mays played in bigger parks and had the bigger responsibilities (the Polo Grounds were nuts). I know you know this but my main point bringing it up is that while Centerfield is a lower value defensive position than the infield minus first his defensive value was incredible.


Lower value? Not remotely. It's definitely a higher value position than 3B and arguably higher than 2B depending on what kind of range the corner OFs have.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Major League Baseball Players
PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 12:00 am 
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monga18 wrote:
corrections wrote:

But keep in mind also that the Gold Glove doesn't always come even close to rewarding the best players and is basically the best defender among name offensive players (of course Ichiro playing an offense plus position that means it is more meritorious than say Jeter winning all the time). But it really isn't close defensively between Mays and Ichiro given that Mays played in bigger parks and had the bigger responsibilities (the Polo Grounds were nuts). I know you know this but my main point bringing it up is that while Centerfield is a lower value defensive position than the infield minus first his defensive value was incredible.


Lower value? Not remotely. It's definitely a higher value position than 3B and arguably higher than 2B depending on what kind of range the corner OFs have.


Um that's just not true by any analysis I've seen. It used to be people would put it ahead of 3rd but I think James among others has thoroughly debunked that rating. Of course team to team if varies. It certainly is never more valuable than second.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Major League Baseball Players
PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 3:08 am 
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Well good hitters are about as scarce in CF as they are at 3B. But to be a CF you have to have a more complete and varied skill set than at any position except SS. So I think that breaks the CF-3B tie. 2B, assuredly, is more valuable except in extreme cases where the corner outfielders are total fucking gimps.

I would like to see Fangraphs' take on this as their WAR ratings consistently give very high value to good CF defense and will absolutely shred the value of a bad CF. This is how they had Franklin Gutierrez as one of the best players in the majors two years ago (admittedly when his OPS+ was considerably higher than 30) and Matt Kemp as below replacement last season.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Major League Baseball Players
PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 4:25 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Major League Baseball Players
PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 4:28 pm 
Mays should be no lower than 3rd place but that's just my opinion. Didn't he play in a ballpark that made it hard to hit home runs?


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Major League Baseball Players
PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 6:23 pm 
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Eh, that's largely exaggerated. Candlestick in its first year was extremely tough, 397 feet to left center. Mays hit just 12 HR at home that year (29 total). The next year, the fences were pulled in significantly (365 feet to left center) and Mays hit 40+ in 4 of the next 5 years. The much-vaunted Candlestick wind didn't become a huge factor again until the outfield enclosure was built in 1971, when Mays' career was almost done. The bigger factor was his two years in Korea, which probably cost him upwards of 40 HR.

In terms of production value, Mays wasn't quite at the level of Ruth or Bonds. But I think he's easily the most skilled player who ever lived.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Major League Baseball Players
PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 11:09 am 
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monga18 wrote:
Well good hitters are about as scarce in CF as they are at 3B. But to be a CF you have to have a more complete and varied skill set than at any position except SS. So I think that breaks the CF-3B tie. 2B, assuredly, is more valuable except in extreme cases where the corner outfielders are total fucking gimps.

I would like to see Fangraphs' take on this as their WAR ratings consistently give very high value to good CF defense and will absolutely shred the value of a bad CF. This is how they had Franklin Gutierrez as one of the best players in the majors two years ago (admittedly when his OPS+ was considerably higher than 30) and Matt Kemp as below replacement last season.

I don't know if 2B is more valuable, but CF does require more athleticism:

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.ph ... ner-label/


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