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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Alternative Artists
PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 11:21 pm 
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fearoftrains wrote:
What are the criteria? I can't see Coldplay topping Beat Happening or Big Black as an "alternative artist"—yet they are fairly low, with most of the names ahead of them losing in popularity. So I'd like to know just how you're going about this. Obviously, there is no magic equation.

REM at #1 seems off but I couldn't tell you enough about them, their influence, impact and so forth to get into a discussion. Just not really into them at all. I'd probably put The Smiths in that spot. w/e


The usual, influence/impact/popularity/acclaim both overall and inside the genre.

R.E.M. were the first major alternative rock artist. Probably not the first, but they influenced a host of "college rock" bands, their albums sold consistently well for a band on an independent label, and "The One I Love" was one of the first alternative rock songs to cross over to American pop radio. They do great in popularity (worldwide, even), influence and impact (many books use their appearances on Letterman and American Bandstand as important to American alternative rock music as The Smiths' appearance on Top of the Pops is to British alt rock).


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Alternative Artists
PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 3:40 am 
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fearoftrains wrote:
REM at #1 seems off but I couldn't tell you enough about them, their influence, impact and so forth to get into a discussion. Just not really into them at all. I'd probably put The Smiths in that spot. w/e


Are you British by any chance? Just wondering because R.E.M. are way more important in America than the Smiths, imo.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Alternative Artists
PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 6:52 am 
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PJ Harvey looks very, very low to me. I'm not even sure she should be behind the likes of Nick Cave, Pavement and The Fall tbh. In my mind she beats almost everyone outside the top 10 on musical impact and acclaim.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Alternative Artists
PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 11:53 am 
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Here's the "Alternative Influences" sidebar. It will probably be 50-artists deep.
Artists are pre-alternative, punk, garage, protopunk, psychedelic, experimental and other artists that had significant influence on the alternative rock genre
1. David Bowie
2. Velvet Underground
3. The Stooges
4. MC5
5. Patti Smith
6. Frank Zappa
7. Brian Eno
8. Scott Walker
9. Tom Waits
10. Ramones
11. The Sex Pistols
12. The Clash
13. Lou Reed
14. Iggy Pop
15. Television
16. Roxy Music
17. Jonathan Richman and the Modern Lovers
18. Pere Ubu
19. Blondie
20. The Sonics
21. New York Dolls
22. Glenn Branca
23. Suicide
24. The Residents
25. Leonard Cohen
26. Kraftwerk
27. Captain Beefheart
28. Sparks
29. Love
30. Warren Zevon
31. This Heat
32. Nick Drake
33. The Stranglers
34. Cabaret Voltaire
35. Throbbing Gristle
36. The B-52's
37. Devo
38. Silver Apples
39. Swell Maps
40. John Cooper Clarke
41. Todd Rundgren
42. The 13th Floor Elevators
43. Robert Wyatt
44. Nick Lowe
45. The Seeds
46. Richard Hell and the Voidoids
47. Dr. Feelgood
48. The Damned
49. Ian Dury and the Blockheads
50. John Cale


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Alternative Artists
PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 3:09 pm 
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I think you're underestimating the impact of The Ramones and The Clash there. Although it's strange to see them on this list at all--they're not really earlier than, say, Elvis Costello or Siouxsie & The Banshees. I just thought you were defining punk as not being included.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Alternative Artists
PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 4:26 pm 
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Brett Alan wrote:
I think you're underestimating the impact of The Ramones and The Clash there. Although it's strange to see them on this list at all--they're not really earlier than, say, Elvis Costello or Siouxsie & The Banshees. I just thought you were defining punk as not being included.


Yes, I'm including 1970's punk bands on the alternative influences list, because punk music was the most direct influence on the early alternative and post-punk artists. Once I finalize the listing, i'll move alot of artists up, but right now this is just a generic lists of artists i'm putting on, and in roughly the areas of the list they should be in. More garage rock and pub rock bands will pop up later on the list when I expand it to 50 (that's as far as I think sidebar lists should go)

As I said before, I always thought Elvis Costello and Siouxsie were a bit more on the post-punk/new wave side of things.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Alternative Artists
PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 10:31 pm 
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I finished the new versions of the Top 200 and Top 50 Alternative Influences.

On the Alternative list, most of the bottom of the list is brand new, largely early 80's American bands that should have been on here in the first place.

Any suggestions? Who to move up or down etc.?

I'll be sending both lists to Lew before the end of the month.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Alternative Artists
PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 7:08 am 
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If you have Cohen on the influences list, I definitely think Nick Drake should be there, too. His influence on indie folk seems to be bigger than Cohen's. I might be wrong there, but he certainly deserves a spot somewhere. Also could you explain to me the nature of Zevon's influence on alternative music? I'd say Todd Rundgren might be more deserving. Finally I don't understand your dividing line between punk-era post-punk and alternative post-punk. You have artists such as Talking Heads, Joy Division, Elvis Costello, The Fall, The Jam, Wire, Public Image Ltd., Gang of Four, Devo, Minutemen, Squeeze, The B-52's and Magazine in your Top 100 of alternative artists, but Tom Waits, Television, Pere Ubu, Suicide, This Heat, Cabaret Voltaire, Throbbing Gristle and The Specials only as influences. To be honest I don't see any consequent dividing line.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Alternative Artists
PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 11:51 am 
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pauldrach wrote:
Talking Heads, Joy Division, Elvis Costello, The Fall, The Jam, Wire, Public Image Ltd., Gang of Four, Devo, Minutemen, Squeeze, The B-52's and Magazine


Personally, I'd probably relegate those artists to the 'influences' sidebar list.

If a line were to be drawn, I'd go with AllMusic's claim that "R.E.M. mark the point when post-punk turned into alternative rock." Seems reasonable enough to me.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Alternative Artists
PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 12:19 pm 
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All those artists count as alternative, because i'm also adding in post-punk and alternative leaning new wave groups. Honestly, I should have made that clearer.

Devo is already in the influences section, because they predate punk and have a sound largely independent - if similar - to most alternative music trends. The only artist I should move into the influences section from the main list is the B-52's.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Alternative Artists
PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 12:22 pm 
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pauldrach wrote:
Tom Waits, Television, Pere Ubu, Suicide, This Heat, Cabaret Voltaire, Throbbing Gristle and The Specials only as influences. To be honest I don't see any consequent dividing line.


Most of those groups you mentioned pre-date punk rock, or formed at the same time as punk groups but had a completely different style from punk rock music (The Specials, Throbbing Gristle) and although not alternative, influenced later alt-rock bands.

As for Zevon, he was an influence on REM, as well as many alternative singer/songwriters from the late 80's-mid 90's.

I thought Drake was already on the influences list. Adding him now.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Alternative Artists
PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 4:49 pm 
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How are The Jam more alternative than This Heat? How is Elvis Costello more alternative than Tom Waits' 1980's work? You say that The Specials and Throbbing Gristle are not alternative without explaining why they are not, when Squeeze and The Fall are. I still don't see it, sorry.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Alternative Artists
PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 5:46 pm 
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pauldrach wrote:
How are The Jam more alternative than This Heat? How is Elvis Costello more alternative than Tom Waits' 1980's work? You say that The Specials and Throbbing Gristle are not alternative without explaining why they are not, when Squeeze and The Fall are. I still don't see it, sorry.


Yeah, I was going to specifically reference the Jam, Costello and Squeeze: I believe they are the earliest British "New Wave" groups - appearing at the same time as punk, but aren't punk artists.

Honestly, I should add the 2-Tone bands to the main list list. There's really no reason I shouldn't if i'm including New Wave groups. As such, I have added Madness and The Specials to the alternative list.

Throbbing Gristle certainly predates most punk groups and although they influence "alternative music" they are of another genre (Industrial/Experimental. Yes, i'm aware NIN is too, but NIN has a more alternative sound and identity as an alternative band than other industrial groups). The Fall are a post-punk band, plain as day, and i'm including Post-Punk groups.

Waits? He's someone i'd like to see more arguments from other users on whether or not he is to be included. Is he an alternative artist or an artist that ran parallel to the alternative but not immediately of genre? I'd like to hear what other users have to say.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Alternative Artists
PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 4:11 pm 
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Where's My Bloody Valentine?


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Alternative Artists
PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 4:43 pm 
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Well, piper, that's a damn good question!


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