It is currently Fri Nov 28, 2014 7:11 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 191 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 ... 13  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Songwriters
PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:35 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2011 4:49 pm
Posts: 3871
Wrong.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Songwriters
PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2011 3:04 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2011 7:52 am
Posts: 1500
Location: The Pearl of the Orient
mrsamtotheg wrote:
this list is fine as is, as far as dylan chuck berry , I would go with chuck, he was the first to write witty songs that were not about girl boy relationships, before dylan, he also wrote guitar parts that have been used from everyone from ac dc to the stones etc, he embodies rock n roll more so than dylan who arguably writes music that sometimes isnt "rockin' per se.


Criteria breakdown time:

Popularity: Dylan by just a bit. He only had to be the songwriter, and some covers of his songs have garnered huge popularity (The Byrds' "Mr. Tambourine Man", Hendrix's "All Along The Watchtower", etc.). Actually, this could tie.

Influence: Berry fairly easily. Arguably rock's first great songwriter-performer. Of course, making the guitar part an integral part of rock songwriting is huge stuff.

Acclaim: Here's the kicker. Bob Dylan is the most acclaimed songwriter (Lennon-McCartney being the most acclaimed songwriting group) in rock history, easy. Berry, while reasonably acclaimed, is not close to Dylan's, especially today.

So: Dylan by just a bit?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Songwriters
PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2011 8:05 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2011 4:49 pm
Posts: 3871
Dylan wins popularity I think. His music has stayed popular more than Berry's has. And I don't believe Dylan's influence is that far off from Berry.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Songwriters
PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2011 9:47 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2011 7:52 am
Posts: 1500
Location: The Pearl of the Orient
a_man_named_gray wrote:
Dylan wins popularity I think. His music has stayed popular more than Berry's has. And I don't believe Dylan's influence is that far off from Berry.


You can't exactly say that. "Johnny B. Goode", "Maybellene", "Roll Over Beethoven", and other songs in Berry's catalog are still hugely popular. On influence, Berry was one of the first to establish centering the writing of a song around a guitar riff, and his lyrics have an influence on narrative structure and the variety of song topics. Dylan's influence is undeniable, but Berry laid down the groundwork in terms of rock songwriting. Maybe the gap isn't that big, but it's very sizable.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Songwriters
PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2011 10:04 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2011 4:49 pm
Posts: 3871
Deany wrote:
You can't exactly say that. "Johnny B. Goode", "Maybellene", "Roll Over Beethoven", and other songs in Berry's catalog are still hugely popular.


More popular than Like A Rolling Stone or Blowin' In The Wind? Not to mention the phenomenal success his albums consistently(bar a few sub-par efforts through the 80's) had over the course of his 50-year career.

Deany wrote:
On influence, Berry was one of the first to establish centering the writing of a song around a guitar riff


I'll give you the guitar riff, though you can't contribute that wholly to Berry.

Deany wrote:
his lyrics have an influence on narrative structure and the variety of song topics.


Whatever influence Chuck Berry had on lyrics, Bob Dylan's is certainly greater.


Not that this is very important, as we both think Bob is greater. :cheers:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Songwriters
PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2011 11:11 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2011 7:52 am
Posts: 1500
Location: The Pearl of the Orient
Yeah, I think Dylan > Berry as a songwriter too, but I just want to clarify my case. Among all the songs in both men's catalog, "Blowin' in the Wind" is the most popular, with "Johnny B. Goode" just a hair behind in my opinion; but Berry has more immediately recognizable songs that have entered pop culture and the people's consciousness. As for influence, Berry laid the foundation for most if not all of modern rock songwriting. If the history of songwriting was a tree, Berry would be the roots, while Dylan would be the branches. I'm not saying that Dylan's influence isn't prevalent, just not as much as Berry's.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Songwriters
PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2011 11:27 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2011 7:09 am
Posts: 349
Deany wrote:
mrsamtotheg wrote:
this list is fine as is, as far as dylan chuck berry , I would go with chuck, he was the first to write witty songs that were not about girl boy relationships, before dylan, he also wrote guitar parts that have been used from everyone from ac dc to the stones etc, he embodies rock n roll more so than dylan who arguably writes music that sometimes isnt "rockin' per se.


Criteria breakdown time:

Popularity: Dylan by just a bit. He only had to be the songwriter, and some covers of his songs have garnered huge popularity (The Byrds' "Mr. Tambourine Man", Hendrix's "All Along The Watchtower", etc.). Actually, this could tie.

Influence: Berry fairly easily. Arguably rock's first great songwriter-performer. Of course, making the guitar part an integral part of rock songwriting is huge stuff.

Acclaim: Here's the kicker. Bob Dylan is the most acclaimed songwriter (Lennon-McCartney being the most acclaimed songwriting group) in rock history, easy. Berry, while reasonably acclaimed, is not close to Dylan's, especially today.

So: Dylan by just a bit?


no I would go with chuck , popularity you fail to consider popularity or how big they were back then ,for instance the stones the beatles all the british acts were covering and or inspired by berry even , dylan wrote subterranian homesick blues as a sequel to too much monkey business and come together was inspired by berry not to mention ,hendrix did a cover of johnny b goode and he was a late 60's act berrys influence went into the 70's as well with ac dc and mc5 gettin into his work, and him scoring his first number one with my ding a ling

dylan was hugely popular in the 60's although he waned a bit at the end of the decade ,as punk was settling in they were going for the sound berry was doing and berry was around in the mid 50's because his style was still relevant in the 70's and he was out earlier you can say he had a more last popularity than dylan (from 50s to 70's) I didnt see bob dylans folk stuff or style in the 80's (not in a significant way at least)

both guys are pretty popular today , or revered today per se though , so I am gonna give this to berry by a little bit or a tie

influence : I would go chuck berry guitar riffs etc FIRST GUY TO not write about boy girl love songs and use wit, before dylan mind you?

acclaim : this category is used in the event of a tie but its not a tie , and even so as much as dylan is admired for his lyrics and folk stuff mind you ,he had some criticisms as well, one being he couldnt sing, and at times his lyrics were non sensical,


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Songwriters
PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2011 11:39 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2011 7:09 am
Posts: 349
a_man_named_gray wrote:
Deany wrote:
You can't exactly say that. "Johnny B. Goode", "Maybellene", "Roll Over Beethoven", and other songs in Berry's catalog are still hugely popular.


More popular than Like A Rolling Stone or Blowin' In The Wind? Not to mention the phenomenal success his albums consistently(bar a few sub-par efforts through the 80's) had over the course of his 50-year career.

Deany wrote:
On influence, Berry was one of the first to establish centering the writing of a song around a guitar riff


I'll give you the guitar riff, though you can't contribute that wholly to Berry.

Deany wrote:
his lyrics have an influence on narrative structure and the variety of song topics.


Whatever influence Chuck Berry had on lyrics, Bob Dylan's is certainly greater.


Not that this is very important, as we both think Bob is greater. :cheers:




johnny b goode is more popular than rolling stone, in the 50's they sent a satelitte with that record out into space, it was big when it came out, in the late 60's hendrix covered it, punk bands where coverin in the 70's , slashes use of double stop bends in the 80's can attribute to that song, back to future came out in the 80's to that song, american graffiti in the 70's used that song, you can cover that song today with some heavy distortion and it wud get the crowd jumpin, I should know ima musician, its much more popular than like a rolling stone and or blowin in the wind

and dylan influence bob dylan and if not , using wit in songs and writing about things that are not about boy girl love relationships can be traced back further than dylan to viola, chuck berry,

I know you personally like dylans music , more but being truly objective one would give the nod to berry.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Songwriters
PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2011 11:42 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2011 4:49 pm
Posts: 3871
Popularity is close. But anything you say regarding Berry's lyrical influence is going to be upsurped by Dylan. And people knocking Dylan's singing doesn't matter because it is only acclaim as a songwriter that is taken into consideration. And as Deany said, Dylan is probably the most acclaimed songwriter of all time unless you count Lennon-McCartney as one songwriter.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Songwriters
PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2011 12:55 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2011 7:09 am
Posts: 349
a_man_named_gray wrote:
Popularity is close. But anything you say regarding Berry's lyrical influence is going to be upsurped by Dylan. And people knocking Dylan's singing doesn't matter because it is only acclaim as a songwriter that is taken into consideration. And as Deany said, Dylan is probably the most acclaimed songwriter of all time unless you count Lennon-McCartney as one songwriter.



his singind does affect him, some of his vocal melodies sound awful, not that they are bad notes per se but the way he sings them, say what you want about dylan expanding berrys template for lyrics, the credit goes to berry, just like alot of guys expanded on the linear drumming steve gadd did when he first used it on 50 ways to leave your lover, but the godfather of that style is steve gadd etc, and dylan is most acclaimed by white aor audiences as the second greatest of all time, not in the circles I hang in ,is he considered the second best.

whatever with all that said

popularity goes to berry,
influence goes to berry (influence is who did it first not who did it better)
and acclaim per se goes to dylan ,

berry still edges out dylan.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Songwriters
PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2011 3:19 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2011 4:49 pm
Posts: 3871
mrsamtotheg wrote:
his singind does affect him, some of his vocal melodies sound awful, not that they are bad notes per se but the way he sings them.

How does this concern the criteria at all?

mrsamtotheg wrote:
say what you want about dylan expanding berrys template for lyrics, the credit goes to berry, just like alot of guys expanded on the linear drumming steve gadd did when he first used it on 50 ways to leave your lover, but the godfather of that style is steve gadd etc.

Anyone can see the Dylan's lyrics are far more influential than Chuck Berry's, even though I acknowledge the importance of his.

mrsamtotheg wrote:
dylan is most acclaimed by white aor audiences as the second greatest of all time, not in the circles I hang in ,is he considered the second best.

Being the most acclaimed just by white aor audiences is enough to be greater than Berry, though the acclaim criterion depends on actual music critics. All of whom praise Dylan more highly than Berry so w/e.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Songwriters
PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2011 4:28 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 06, 2010 1:52 pm
Posts: 2735
Whether or not Dylan could sing has no relevance to this list. Also Sam, you seem to be downplaying Dylan's influence by saying Dylan expanded on Berry's template, but Berry did it first. That would be a bit like if we were talking about overall influence, and saying that The Beatles expanded on Buddy Holly's template, but Holly did it first. In both cases the later expansion was so huge that the later artist has to be given credit for influencing the music that followed those later innovations.

mrsamtotheg wrote:
acclaim : this category is used in the event of a tie but its not a tie , and even so as much as dylan is admired for his lyrics and folk stuff mind you ,he had some criticisms as well, one being he couldnt sing, and at times his lyrics were non sensical,


Acclaim isn't in the event of a tie; it's part of the first tier.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Songwriters
PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2011 9:20 pm 
Offline
moderator

Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2010 2:17 pm
Posts: 4505
I can't help but notice that Dylan is ahead of Berry on Greatest Rock Artists. I have a very, very hard time seeing how Dylan could be a greater artist than Berry but not a greater songwriter.

More specifically, I think Dylan has to take influence. Yes, Berry was writing songs that weren't about romance in the mid-50s--but so were Leiber and Stoller. I can think of a lot more songwriters who were consciously writing in Dylan's style than in Berry's.

Don't get me wrong--I love Chuck Berry, and he's a great, great songwriter. But I have to put Mr. Zimmerman ahead of him.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Songwriters
PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2011 11:48 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2011 7:52 am
Posts: 1500
Location: The Pearl of the Orient
mrsamtotheg wrote:
a_man_named_gray wrote:
Popularity is close. But anything you say regarding Berry's lyrical influence is going to be upsurped by Dylan. And people knocking Dylan's singing doesn't matter because it is only acclaim as a songwriter that is taken into consideration. And as Deany said, Dylan is probably the most acclaimed songwriter of all time unless you count Lennon-McCartney as one songwriter.



his singind does affect him, some of his vocal melodies sound awful, not that they are bad notes per se but the way he sings them, say what you want about dylan expanding berrys template for lyrics, the credit goes to berry, just like alot of guys expanded on the linear drumming steve gadd did when he first used it on 50 ways to leave your lover, but the godfather of that style is steve gadd etc, and dylan is most acclaimed by white aor audiences as the second greatest of all time, not in the circles I hang in ,is he considered the second best.

whatever with all that said

popularity goes to berry,
influence goes to berry (influence is who did it first not who did it better)
and acclaim per se goes to dylan ,

berry still edges out dylan.


Dylan's singing does not affect his songwriting. His vocal melodies were genuinely beautiful; he just wasn't capable of replicating them with his voice. When other artists cover his work, the true genius of his composition comes to light. As for lyrics, Dylan didn't just expand on Berry's template: he kicked down the four metaphorical walls of the box rock lyrics were in and exposed us to the sheer scope of ideas that could be expressed in the genre. Highway 61 Revisited alone influenced, either directly or indirectly, 90% of all artists that came afterwards. Dylan's influence is continuously felt from the 60's, to the modern day, while Berry's songwriting style (continuous, constant riffs; short and sweet songs; realistic narrative lyrics) isn't as ubiquitous anymore.

Popularity is another thing. I'm thinking you're underestimating "Blowin' in the Wind"'s popularity, but covers of Dylan's work are also very popular ("All Along The Watchtower" for example.) As for acclaim, music critics practically worship Dylan's songwriting. The man has been nominated for a Nobel Prize in Literature numerous times, won an honorary Pulitzer Prize for "lyrics that tapped into the zeitgeist and social consciousness of his time", and is continuously praised by musicians and pundits for his songwriting. His songs, though of course more lyrically oriented, have been praised for their complex melodies as well.

So, a more accurate breakdown:

Popularity: Tie
Influence: Berry, but by smaller than I first thought
Acclaim: Dylan all the way


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Songwriters
PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2011 5:20 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2011 7:09 am
Posts: 349
a_man_named_gray wrote:
mrsamtotheg wrote:
his singind does affect him, some of his vocal melodies sound awful, not that they are bad notes per se but the way he sings them.

How does this concern the criteria at all?

vocal melodies are a part of song writing I would argue to say the most important part, you dont just compose the chords and the lyrics, you have to also compose the vocal melody, dylan rates poorly in this category,its harder to hum back the melody of a dylan song than it is a chuck berry song.


mrsamtotheg wrote:
say what you want about dylan expanding berrys template for lyrics, the credit goes to berry, just like alot of guys expanded on the linear drumming steve gadd did when he first used it on 50 ways to leave your lover, but the godfather of that style is steve gadd etc.

Anyone can see the Dylan's lyrics are far more influential than Chuck Berry's, even though I acknowledge the importance of his.

mrsamtotheg wrote:
dylan is most acclaimed by white aor audiences as the second greatest of all time, not in the circles I hang in ,is he considered the second best.

Being the most acclaimed just by white aor audiences is enough to be greater than Berry, though the acclaim criterion depends on actual music critics. All of whom praise Dylan more highly than Berry so w/e.


I disagree , you have to take in the opinions of guys who arent in love with the classic rock stuff ,chuck berry holds up better than a non white aor audience, but this is a hard category cuz how does chuck do with the AOR audience im not too sure, but I will say guys like slash and angus etc use his double stop licks and things of that nature all the time, as did hendrix and the beatles and the stones covered his stuff, I dont know how well dylan reached the non AOR audience although stevie wonder covered blowing in the wind,I am not sure its as much as berry is revered in the AOR audience, both guys do well in the country rock category ,neither are sampled in hip hop, none are sampled in metal ,berry is more revered in punk and rockabilly circles,singer song writer category is easily dylan, neither make a dent in jazz rock,or in funk,neither do well in latin rock and blues rock is more so berry ....so if you add up the categories in the most acclaimed circle amongst all of rocks sub genres ,the acclaimed edge is slighty towards berry


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 191 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 ... 13  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:


Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group

DigitalDreamDoor Forum is one part of a music and movie list website whose owner has given its visitors
the privilege to discuss music and movies, and has no control and cannot in any way be held liable over
how, or by whom this board is used. If you read or see anything inappropriate that has been posted,
contact webmaster@digitaldreamdoor.com. Comments in the forum are reviewed before list updates.
Topics include rock music, metal, rap, hip-hop, blues, jazz, songs, albums, guitar, drums, musicians...


DDD Home Page | DDD Music Lists Page | DDD Movie Lists Page