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 Post subject: Re: Top 100 drummers of all genres
PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 11:02 am 
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I agree with the assessment of buddy rich being more known worldwide, but Hendrix to Berry is harder. Krupa practically invented the modern drum set an came up with the largest amount of drum techniques used today. You could say he started modern drumming, while yes, Rich perfected it technically. But I'm thinking that bass wise, look at Jamerson, Jamerson would be most like Krupa, but I still think Rich should be 1 and I agree with you Yousha on the statement about worldwide popularity and name.


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 Post subject: Re: Top 100 drummers of all genres
PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 11:47 am 
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Classic Rock Junkie wrote:
I need more than just beaverteeth or ariel, human, what do you think on Buddy vs. Krupa? If anyone else wants to add input as well, please, please do I implore you.


I appreciate Krupas contributions to drumming technique a lot more than Buddy's showboating and demonstrations of those skills, but I still think Buddy should be at #1 personally, with Krupa at two. I think a simple criteria breakdown would be best though, mostly because i'm not 100% certain that Buddy wins influence (although that is how it seems to me and it seems like he does by a pretty good amount too) but I do know the public was a lot more aware of him at the time and especially now. Outside technical ability, I think Krupa wins basically everything else.


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 Post subject: Re: Top 100 drummers of all genres
PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 11:59 am 
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Classic Rock Junkie wrote:
I agree with the assessment of buddy rich being more known worldwide, but Hendrix to Berry is harder. Krupa practically invented the modern drum set an came up with the largest amount of drum techniques used today. You could say he started modern drumming, while yes, Rich perfected it technically. But I'm thinking that bass wise, look at Jamerson, Jamerson would be most like Krupa, but I still think Rich should be 1 and I agree with you Yousha on the statement about worldwide popularity and name.


I think Jamerson is where he is because even if his name is not known worldwide, people DEFINITELY know the songs where he played, Motown songs are huge, and though few non-music enthusiasts know the people who played on them, its the playing that matters, and if its spread, its spread. Plus, I dare say the world of rock bass guitarists does not have a unanimous name such as Hendrix is for rock guitars. Its the same for drums in the rock world too, Id say Bonzo is the closest, and hence he is deservedly number 1 now, followed by Bruford, which I also agree with, since he's probably the most talented/with most artistic contribution in the field. When someone has extreme widespread influence or recognition, I think they go beyond 'objective criteria'. Rich seems to have that with drumming. Again, its a layman and an observers point of view more than a knowledgeable one


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 Post subject: Re: Top 100 drummers of all genres
PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 12:02 pm 
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I agree that Krupa wins everything but skill and possibly influence. Krupa's indirect influence is huge, but influence on drummers worldwide does mainly go to Buddy, who I'm almost sure worldwide is far more known, and all those foreign drummers saw him play and went 'woah'. I think Buddy should be 1 and Krupa at 2 if we have influence as the most important category (i.e. worth twice as much as any other), which it should be in this list, than and innovation. It is close unfortunately but I would like to have Buddy at 1, but I am still torn because arguments for Krupa are really good, his innovation and creativity is all the way at the top, arguably the most innovative drummer ever, though Buddy had his fair share of innovation.


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 Post subject: Re: Top 100 drummers of all genres
PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 12:44 pm 
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Well, i think some breakdowns here have scoring ranges from .5 (skill on this list)-2 (influence) but regardless Krupa wins on points. so if influence is truly king, then Buddy is solidified at number one, if not... krupa is.


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 Post subject: Re: Top 100 drummers of all genres
PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 3:38 pm 
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Human wrote:
Well, i think some breakdowns here have scoring ranges from .5 (skill on this list)-2 (influence) but regardless Krupa wins on points. so if influence is truly king, then Buddy is solidified at number one, if not... krupa is.


and I right now can't decide myself on which...I'm the editor so I make the final decision but I am really seeing Krupa as the maybe more deserving number 1, but buddy is the symbol of number 1. I think for now I will give it to Krupa, just like Jamerson is number 1 on bass list, it doesn't matter if he's less known than Entwistle and Bruce, what he did for the instrument gives him his placement and for now I'm willing to have Krupa 1 and Buddy 2.

So now it gets tricky. I heard someone once say Bohnam should be number 3 and I'm not sure I agree with that. Now we need to really just start getting the 5 biggest drummers total from all the remaining lists. I will return with my choices.

So here are the best of the lists, and I think all these guys are ahead of most of the 3 or lower names on other lists by the criteria, but here they are:

Max Roach, Elvin Jones, Chic Webb, Tony Williams, Billy Cobham, Vinnie Colaiuta, Steve Gadd, John Bohnam

so yeah now we start ordering


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 Post subject: Re: Top 100 drummers of all genres
PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 11:58 pm 
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It strikes my (admittedly somewhat uninformed) sensibilities as near-absurd that Bonzo could be placed above Roach, Blakey or Elvin. The others you mentioned, I think Bonzo might/may well beat tho


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 Post subject: Re: Top 100 drummers of all genres
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 12:30 am 
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Ariel wrote:
It strikes my (admittedly somewhat uninformed) sensibilities as near-absurd that Bonzo could be placed above Roach, Blakey or Elvin. The others you mentioned, I think Bonzo might/may well beat tho


he won't beat roach or elvin, maybe not blakey but he may have a bigger impact on the drum world than Blakey, Blakey was huge but I could treat elvin as the bigger of them in similar regards. It's probably Roach then Elvin next, not sure if I want Williams right after though.


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 Post subject: Re: Top 100 drummers of all genres
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 3:24 am 
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Why are jazz/ fusion artist always regarded greater musicians, I think that's bullshit, could take the number 3 or peart or whoever.
even Questlove should be on this list


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 Post subject: Re: Top 100 drummers of all genres
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 9:38 am 
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because most of the time, they are. They require much more knowledge of music theory and in a way there's a lot more creativity and expression to jazz, rock can definitely have that, but I'm just saying on average. Also due to the amount of grooving required it generally requires various degrees of tone and expression that you don't generally find on the instrument in most genres. The amount of musical knowledge it takes to deal with jazz song structures almost just raises their level of musical sophistication too. This isn't for everyone, it's just on average comparing the genres.


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 Post subject: Re: Top 100 drummers of all genres
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 11:28 pm 
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Classic Rock Junkie wrote:
Ariel wrote:
It strikes my (admittedly somewhat uninformed) sensibilities as near-absurd that Bonzo could be placed above Roach, Blakey or Elvin. The others you mentioned, I think Bonzo might/may well beat tho


he won't beat roach or elvin, maybe not blakey but he may have a bigger impact on the drum world than Blakey, Blakey was huge but I could treat elvin as the bigger of them in similar regards. It's probably Roach then Elvin next, not sure if I want Williams right after though.


I have a really hard time swallowing the idea that Bonzo>Blakey on a list like this. Elaborate.


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 Post subject: Re: Top 100 drummers of all genres
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 11:56 pm 
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Classic Rock Junkie wrote:
because most of the time, they are. They require much more knowledge of music theory and in a way there's a lot more creativity and expression to jazz, rock can definitely have that, but I'm just saying on average. Also due to the amount of grooving required it generally requires various degrees of tone and expression that you don't generally find on the instrument in most genres. The amount of musical knowledge it takes to deal with jazz song structures almost just raises their level of musical sophistication too. This isn't for everyone, it's just on average comparing the genres.



More creativity I wouldn't say, sometimes it's more difficult to make a nice groove, beat to fit in the song than to improvise I think. Sometimes rock drummers have to be at least as creative, just to capture the sound right for the track. Playing in hallways, bathroom, ... maybe they do have more knowledge about theory ( I guess it's more feeling on the instrument) but I think some of the rock monsters could be considered as great as any jazz/fusion cat.


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 Post subject: Re: Top 100 drummers of all genres
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 1:17 am 
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Johny_The_Fox wrote:
Classic Rock Junkie wrote:
because most of the time, they are. They require much more knowledge of music theory and in a way there's a lot more creativity and expression to jazz, rock can definitely have that, but I'm just saying on average. Also due to the amount of grooving required it generally requires various degrees of tone and expression that you don't generally find on the instrument in most genres. The amount of musical knowledge it takes to deal with jazz song structures almost just raises their level of musical sophistication too. This isn't for everyone, it's just on average comparing the genres.



More creativity I wouldn't say, sometimes it's more difficult to make a nice groove, beat to fit in the song than to improvise I think. Sometimes rock drummers have to be at least as creative, just to capture the sound right for the track. Playing in hallways, bathroom, ... maybe they do have more knowledge about theory ( I guess it's more feeling on the instrument) but I think some of the rock monsters could be considered as great as any jazz/fusion cat.


jazz does more grooves, not sure if you're implying rock does. The independence required for the most rudimentary jazz makes it extremely difficult to branch out into creative territory without complete command of your limbs and the instrument, the ability to change up a rock beat and have creative fills and linear grooves in rock is incomparably smaller. It does truly depend on the song and style, definitely, but rudimentary rock beats and linear grooves are 1/10000000 of the most rudimentary jazz, and the highest levels of playing in each genre are also considerably different. When the legends duke it out, jazz takes creativity comfortably.

Also not saying Bonzo should be ahead of Blakey, but for influence they are in a similar boat. Blakey's massive influence on jazz is comparable to Bohnam's on rock (I honestly think Roach and Jones are more influential drummers than Bohnam, I really do with all genres considered), both have a considerable impact on multi genres, but Blakey's is far more long lived. Although Blakey was paramount in the development of bebop drumming, I feel Bohnam innovated more beats, grooves, and well known and replicated techniques for rock drumming than Blakey did for jazz or any other drummer. Bohnam's triple kicks, many well replicated beats, half time shuffle groove, and tuning styles come off to me as more innovative than Blakey, as he really built upon all the jazz greats and had, like most at the time, a good eye on what Roach was doing in Bebop. However I'd give Blakey creativity and skill without hesitation. If u think Blakey takes influence, he easily destroys bohnam, otherwise he doesn't. Should Blakey be ahead? Maybe. I love jazz and listen to it a ton but Blakey's massive influence on jazz is comparable IMO to Bohnam's on rock and their multi genre influence is definitely reasonably comparative, well maybe Blakey takes it there. If they tie influence Blakey would still win, so it's all about who gets influence. Input? I think so far we have:

1. Gene Krupa
2. Buddy Rich (this is for now)
3. Max Roach
4. Elvin Jones
5. Tony Williams (this man changed the instrument. He really did, no one played like Tony before or added the multi genre combinations and style like he did, and at his age...)
6. Chic Webb
8. Bohnam
9. Blakey? Or Dodds.
10. Steve Gadd (I feel he's more influential than Colaiuta, and though Colaiuta gets creativity I'd give Gadd's groove innovation the innovation victory. Arguably the greatest groover ever.) could go to Dodds though
11+ Cobahm, Dodds, Morello, Colaiuta, Bruford, more...
opinions?


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 Post subject: Re: Top 100 drummers of all genres
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 2:39 am 
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Bill Bruford always lists Blakey, among scant few others, as a god in his mind basically and one of the main influences on his playing and artistic models. He always brings up Morello, Blakey & Roach. To my mind, Bonzo can't touch any of those three on a list like this, realistically.

My dad saw Blakey play live in like the 80s and says it was mindblowing, he was blown away, and my dad's a serious musician with a very discerning eye for talent.

If Blakey is indeed one of the handful of truly GREAT bop drummers ever and helped innovative and define that style forever...which is the style (I think) that most jazz since then has been based on more or less...that counts for a LOT I'd think.

I'm gonna keep fighting this battle because I'm pretty much certain I'm right here, lol.

Allmusic:

"Blakey's influence as a bandleader could not have been nearly so great had he not been such a skilled instrumentalist. No drummer ever drove a band harder; none could generate more sheer momentum in the course of a tune; and probably no drummer had a lower boiling point -- Blakey started every performance full-bore and went from there. His accompaniment style was relentless, and woe to the young saxophonist who couldn't keep up, for Blakey would run him over like a fullback. Blakey differed from other bop drummers in that his style was almost wholly about the music's physical attributes. Where his contemporary Max Roach dealt extensively with the drummer's relationship to melody and timbre, for example, Blakey showed little interest in such matters. To him, jazz percussion wasn't about tone color; it was about rhythm -- first, last, and in between. Blakey's drum set was the engine that propelled the music. To the extent that he exhibited little conceptual development over the course of his long career, either as a player or as a bandleader, Blakey was limited. He was no visionary by any means. But Blakey did one thing exceedingly well, and he did it with genius, spirit, and generosity until the very end of his life."

(http://allmusic.com/artist/art-blakey-p57191/biography)


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 Post subject: Re: Top 100 drummers of all genres
PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 11:30 am 
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Johny_The_Fox wrote:
Why are jazz/ fusion artist always regarded greater musicians, I think that's bullshit, could take the number 3 or peart or whoever.
even Questlove should be on this list


Jazz predated rock and it was a lot more centered on technical playing... in other words almost all innovations towards modern drumming happened because a Jazz musician made them happen. That doesn't mean there is enough highly innovative jazz guys to ignore the accomplishments of the Bonhams or Pearts of the drumming world obviously, but it's enough to probably knock off a pretty huge portion of the rock top 100.


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