Classic Rock Junkie wrote:
because most of the time, they are. They require much more knowledge of music theory and in a way there's a lot more creativity and expression to jazz, rock can definitely have that, but I'm just saying on average. Also due to the amount of grooving required it generally requires various degrees of tone and expression that you don't generally find on the instrument in most genres. The amount of musical knowledge it takes to deal with jazz song structures almost just raises their level of musical sophistication too. This isn't for everyone, it's just on average comparing the genres.
More creativity I wouldn't say, sometimes it's more difficult to make a nice groove, beat to fit in the song than to improvise I think. Sometimes rock drummers have to be at least as creative, just to capture the sound right for the track. Playing in hallways, bathroom, ... maybe they do have more knowledge about theory ( I guess it's more feeling on the instrument) but I think some of the rock monsters could be considered as great as any jazz/fusion cat.
jazz does more grooves, not sure if you're implying rock does. The independence required for the most rudimentary jazz makes it extremely difficult to branch out into creative territory without complete command of your limbs and the instrument, the ability to change up a rock beat and have creative fills and linear grooves in rock is incomparably smaller. It does truly depend on the song and style, definitely, but rudimentary rock beats and linear grooves are 1/10000000 of the most rudimentary jazz, and the highest levels of playing in each genre are also considerably different. When the legends duke it out, jazz takes creativity comfortably.
Also not saying Bonzo should be ahead of Blakey, but for influence they are in a similar boat. Blakey's massive influence on jazz is comparable to Bohnam's on rock (I honestly think Roach and Jones are more influential drummers than Bohnam, I really do with all genres considered), both have a considerable impact on multi genres, but Blakey's is far more long lived. Although Blakey was paramount in the development of bebop drumming, I feel Bohnam innovated more beats, grooves, and well known and replicated techniques for rock drumming than Blakey did for jazz or any other drummer. Bohnam's triple kicks, many well replicated beats, half time shuffle groove, and tuning styles come off to me as more innovative than Blakey, as he really built upon all the jazz greats and had, like most at the time, a good eye on what Roach was doing in Bebop. However I'd give Blakey creativity and skill without hesitation. If u think Blakey takes influence, he easily destroys bohnam, otherwise he doesn't. Should Blakey be ahead? Maybe. I love jazz and listen to it a ton but Blakey's massive influence on jazz is comparable IMO to Bohnam's on rock and their multi genre influence is definitely reasonably comparative, well maybe Blakey takes it there. If they tie influence Blakey would still win, so it's all about who gets influence. Input? I think so far we have:
1. Gene Krupa
2. Buddy Rich (this is for now)
3. Max Roach
4. Elvin Jones
5. Tony Williams (this man changed the instrument. He really did, no one played like Tony before or added the multi genre combinations and style like he did, and at his age...)
6. Chic Webb
9. Blakey? Or Dodds.
10. Steve Gadd (I feel he's more influential than Colaiuta, and though Colaiuta gets creativity I'd give Gadd's groove innovation the innovation victory. Arguably the greatest groover ever.) could go to Dodds though
11+ Cobahm, Dodds, Morello, Colaiuta, Bruford, more...