Never mind, that's ridiculous. How about 29th?

.. with Paice vs Lombardo on the table ... for the first sitting how about some Paice on the drumline with his jungle rhythms from the 60`s ... Take care

This is absolutely sick. The Paice vs. Lombardo thing comes down right now to influence, mainly since the breakdown ends up:

Influence: ?
Innovation: Lombardo
Originality: Lombardo
Creativity: Paice
Skill: Paice
Stylistic Versatility: Paice

I don't think anyone will argue Lombardo being more original than Paice, the question right now is since Influence is 2 if Lombardo takes it it's 4 - 3, if Paice takes it it's 5-2, so that's right now what we're trying to prove. Lombardo has been said his influence reaches to nearly every metal drummer since, I say Paice has far more influence total throughout every genre of rock, however I can't really find solid ways to prove it, though I'm certain it's true. If you have a case for his influence, he wins, it's clear Paice is more creative (IMO), skilled, and has more varied drumbeats and styles.

I had already posted Chasing Shadows on the ratings thread as an example of Paice's creativity.
ALWAYS loved that song and that beat.

What would keep him out of the top 20? He was sought after by like everyone and dominates most other criteria... 19 maybe?

criteria wise he should be higher than 19 I think, with Copeland...

Influence: I'd go with Copeland no matter how huge Gadd is in rock, and I know he is
Innovation: Tie or Copeland....what say you? Gadd's innovated more grooves than anyone else there is, Copeland innovated an entire style in rock music and new ways to incorporate beats
Originality: Copeland's style I think was more original than Gadd's, yes Gadd is extremely original but I feel Copeland takes this one
Creativity: Both are very creative but gotta go with Gadd
Skill: Gadd by wtsf amount
Stylistic Versatility: Gadd

Tell me what you think about Originality and Innovation, if my breakdown stands Gadd is at 19.

Not to be pushy, but I feel pretty f'n strongly about NOT including Gadd on this list. This is a ROCK list and he's exclusively known for his jazz work right? It doesn't matter if he's done rock sessions here and there. There's always been an unspoken rule on DDD afaik that if you lean very heavily toward jazz generally speaking or your famous or great work is in jazz, you don't make it on to the rock instrumentalist lists. Let me give you an example. Jaco Pastorius did some very significant, groundbreaking, highly acclaimed and very famous work with Joni Mitchell. Rock. In the 80s.

And it doesn't matter. Why? Because that's still an incredibly flimsy argument for Mr. modern jazz bass himself to make it onto a rock list. He was a jazz (fusion) bassist who dabbled occasionally in rock. If I'm right that Gadd is similar, putting him on this list would set a bad precedent and cause all kinds of problems, basically opening a can of worms of 'oh shit why not add Vinnie too, and Steve Smith? They also did significant rock work'

I do NOT mean to encroach on CRJ's authority on this subforum whatsoever, but speaking as the bass section mod for a minute here, let's look at things. I removed Marcus Miller from the bassists list because his important work is in jazz, that's what he's known for, where he developed his style, where he stood out etc. He's a jazz guy who's done rock sessions here and there. He's done enough rock you could make an argument for him to stay on the rock bassists list, but he'd be assured a low spot on that list because you can't really count his 'greatness' which is as a jazz player that much in a rock list.

Let's take some more borderline candidates. Anthony Jackson and Abe Laboriel have both done a ton of jazz, but you know what, they're also important in the history of rock even aside from their jazz playing, like very important. Therefore they're staying on the rock bassists list. Their rock work is very noteworthy (especially Abe).

I'm concerned about setting a bad precedent here, that's all.

IF Gadd really has the right to stay (not my call, obviously) I implore the list editor (CRJ) to consider putting him in a low spot. In an all genre list he'd have a HIGH spot but why award him influence, innovation etc points for accomplishments he made in jazz, while playing jazz?

Ringo/Blaine...

I don't remember there ever being a post explaining in depth a criteria breakdown between Ringo and Blaine before the switch happened and Blaine jumped a spot. Maybe I missed that post.

If Blaine really has creativity and originality on Starr, WORD. I don't disbelieve it, but that means he's a really sick drummer and not just a groundbreaker/important one, and I didn't know that

Paice/Lombardo...

I remain firm in my opinion that Paice intuitively deserves the higher spot. Incredibly pretentious as this is I'm gonna quote myself here, which I never do, only because I don't want to just re-word what I said in this earlier post:



Paice is at minimum top 10 influence in rock. Even if Lombardo is #1 influence in metal, Paice is one of THE guys on the Mt Rushmore who basically co invented and defined rock drumming, with Ringo, Blaine, Moon, Ginger, Bill, Neil, Bonzo and Carl. And I love Lombardo like you wouldn't believe, but it seems wrong to me to let him jump Paice

Re: the top 20 in general...

I don't think we're done, CRJ. I think we're being a little hasty here, no offense intended.

Purdie at #12 is fine I guess if his rock work warrants it, I wouldn't be surprised if it did.

spots #13 to #15 is perfect IMO, nice work CRJ

Still questioning Porcaro v Copeland, mind doing a breakdown?

My MAIN concern in the top 20 is a possible underrating of Benny Benjamin who no one here ever talks about which leads me to believe this subforum simply doesn't know anything about him (no offense...I don't know much about him either). I'll tell Stu to come over here and give everyone the lowdown on Benny if you want, he's Mr Motown/60s and 70s R&B.

Mitch at 20 seems great. Portnoy at 21, fwiw, seems perfect to me too, nicely done, this is almost certainly the best top 20 (er, 21) on this site when it's done, no matter how it ends up, cheers

PS CRJ can't find the recent post you made thanking me for nominating you as mod here...dude it's a pleasure and I'm so happy I did it...this forum is fucking sick and you're the best mod on this site right now imo. And probably the best mod I've ever seen at DDD, along with Jim from the old DDD

Wow Ariel best mod? Idk yngtchie's pretty sick. From that post, Gadd falls right into that category of not being rock enough. Which is why initially I wasn't going to have him on the list, just like honorable mentions on the guitarist list. Some of Gadd's most famous work and drumlines were with Paul Simon, but as you say, Pastorious had some stuff with Joni Mitchell, but you wouldn't have him on the list either.

Right now it's a question, Gadd's known more for fusion then pure jazz, that's his genre, but at the same time I'd say he has as much a chance at this list if we let him on as Cobham. So right now, I'm not sure he should be on, that's why I'm asking where you'd place him. Purdie played on more rock songs than nearly any other drummer on this list, that's why he remains. Gadd's done quite a bit in rock and is hugely influential in rock, but Rich is hugely influential in rock, though did no rock drumming. The question with Gadd is how much work in the genre is required for this list, or should this list only include drummers you'd label as 'rock'. I would never label Gadd as a rock drummer, Vinnie maybe, Gadd no. 150 greatest rock drummers and I wouldn't call Gadd a rock drummer, so I guess that's a case for not having him on the list, however I still think examining what he's done for rock and in it should at least be done. There is no definitive decision yet.


On Blaine btw, did tons of crazy innovative creative stuff for drumming. Got rid of cymbals for special toms because cymbals interfered with the wall of sound, used chains and bicycle horns on his drum kit, messed around with tons of studio equipment and was huge in changing the sound of the drum kit on recordings. His fills and drumlines are also very creative. His credentials and acclaim are absolutely off the charts.

Porcaro vs. Copeland

Influence: Tie at best, possibly Porcaro, his influence is extremely widespread, arguably more than Copeland's
Innovation: Copeland probably, though Porcaro is nothing to scoff at
Originality: Copeland
Creativity: Porcaro
Skill: Porcaro
Stylistic Versatility: Porcaro

Comes down to influence again. I feel it's porcaro, if not then it's Copeland's victory

That is quite true that Lambardo does have influence with almost every metal drummer but I would also suggest Paice has a level of influence within that genre as well, and then as mentioned more influence within a broader spectrum ... one could also argue that Paice has what one might call uber influence in that he is one of the pioneer/founding fathers of hard rock/heavy metal that touches many drummers whether they might realize it or not .... similiar to the small ripples from a hard rock dropped in a pond ... Take care

... you are both excellent mods ... Take care

No, YOU take care.

Nah Steve wasn't exclusively a fusion player by any means and he's more relevant than Benny in style anyway (not to mention output) Just like Steve smith is equally as known for journey as he is for songs like nuteville. Gadds body of work either rivals or overshadows his work with fusion guys but I've always known him from steeley more than Corea.

Crj I agree with your breakdown but now that I think of it Mitch is probably greater in the context of rock music too...

I mean in the context of rock music I'd say Phil Collins is more influential and important, the question is are we going to use the criteria since the latter half favors him or should we have him lower because he's not strictly rock? It's easier just not to include him, but I"m aware of his large body of rock work, however I still would not label Gadd as a rock drummer, but he could fit on this list. Should we have a side list like the guitar forum or something for non-central rock drummers that also have had a huge impact on rock? Everyone on this list's main body of work consists of rock, even Purdie and the others who've played jazz (like Bruford), the majority of their work is rock. The majority of Gadd's is not. So should we expand this list to those who have a large body of rock work or whose central genre is rock, hence rock drummer?

I'm also going to move Paice above Lombardo, I am the mod so I can make decisions, and I intuitively know (if not know from knowing lots of drummers and looking around) that Paice has more influence, so that I'm going to fix. Other than that, I may move Copeland above Porcaro and then I think top 20 is good. If you want Stu to expand upon Benjamin please do, I also don't know too much about him.

What I read suggested Benny was more prominent in other genres as well.

Yeah personally I think having guys like Gadd and Vinnie would just complicate things even more.