http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzveeuFz ... re=related

In the full video, Steve Smith will proceed to teach you all of these grooves that are now rock staples for developing complex drum lines, many rock drummers when trying to get to a more technical and complex level of beat creation start can start with a john bohnam groove. Why are John Bohnam grooves such a huge deal? Because as he said they have a 'swing' feel, they are jazzy grooves that Bohnam made undeniably rock. This transformation is huge, these are HARD ROCK drum lines that allow people to groove with and build off of, these weren't in rock before and a huge deal. HUGE. When you start learning how to build off and out of drumlines, a groove is generally the most important place to start, adapting a swing groove to hard rock opened lots of doors for drummers who never thought to approach rock like that. Moon was a pure rock drummer, Bohnam pushed the boundaries of the instrument. His single pedal drumming did similar things, working on double kicks became important to smooth out some intricate drum parts that before, were not considered.


there's tons of these, from real professional drummers as well on their sites, they can spend half an hour on his triplets alone: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gAeuuF3Abg

There are hundreds of people on youtube who do this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2y3j_HDW ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4w1q8rdRA4U

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcp_XSTc ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJbYKP7Yi98

after Bohnam learned about proper tuning, he worked with professionals to get the sound he wanted, people love asking this guy about all of Bohnam's tuning, cause it's fascinating. Bohnam used tunings like in the Big Band era, something no one in rock did at the time as well.

You'll find some of this stuff for Peart as well, but not to the same degree as Bohnam. Moon? Good luck finding anything on people taking apart his drumlines. They are generally very simple.

Bullshit. You don't know that. You can't know that.



Also bullshit. Even Billy Cobham couldn't figure out what Moon was doing. No drummer says that about Bonham. Bonham is much easier to replicate.



That's due to Jimmy Page's production, not John Bonham's style.



Everything you just typed is bullshit. No drummer agrees with you.



So? The point is that they're both brilliant fucking artists.



It's easier to replicate than Moon's and more conservative than Moon's. The #1 thing that Keith Moon threw away was repetitive drum parts. The bulk of Bonham's recorded work is repetitive drums parts.



Ridiculous.



You think he's just going wild, but that's not it at all. A drummer "just going wild" would sound like shit. Just as a painter just dripping splotches on a canvas willy nilly will produce shit.



And Jackson Pollock just knew the right way to drip paint willy nilly, right?



Name one. And what the fuck is tactful? What makes Moon's fills less tactful?



What "new drum vocabulary" did John Bonham invent?



That's fine by me if that's the approach to the criteria that you want to take, but that necessitates Neil Peart at #2 and Bonham/Moon coming next at 3 and 4.



No, I'm not. Peart/Bruford have more in common with each other than they do with either Moon or Bonham, and Moon/Bonham have more in common with each other than with either Bruford or Peart.



You just misspelled Bonham 6 of 7 times in that breakdown. What did Bonham innovate? What makes him more creative than Moon? I think Moon takes both of those categories.

That's because Bonham can be explained. Keith Moon can't. Even Billy Cobham couldn't figure him out.

that was a famous statement that The Jew addressed a while back. I don't know any drummer who CAN'T figure out Moon's drumlines. Cobham couldn't figure out how he was doing what he was doing. If Cobham sat down for 30 minutes and listened to any of Moon's drum pieces with enough attention I have no doubt he could figure them out. Moon's drumlines are widely considered easy to replicate note wise, impossible to replicate style wise. Bonham's are much easier to replicate style wise, but the intricacies of his beats go far deeper.

No actual drummer thinks either of those things are true.



Reckless? What's reckless about "Baba O'Riley" or "Pinball Wizard"?



That's utter horseshit.

I don't believe you.



The man said otherwise. He watched Keith Moon play for more than 30 minutes. There's another drummer, I wish I could remember which one, who thought he could figure Keith Moon out. He asked if he could sit behind Keith Moon during a concert, and was granted permission. He said he left more confused than before.



That makes no sense.



No, they don't. Like what? What beat of Bonham's is so freaking intricate?

You just said that CRJ couldn't possibly know what was in Moon's head when he played.
By the same token, how can YOU possibly know what every other drummer thinks? Did you take a worldwide survey?
It is not an opinion, but a FACT that he was primitive and careless. Technique was not his main concern, that's just how he was. Doesn't mean I love his playing any less.



Those are still typical Moon drum lines, loud and bombastic.
He had a very poor sense of dynamics, as a drummer.



You like Sarah Silverman.



Proof?



Yes it does.
Ability and delivery are two different things. Moon did far more for the drummer than the drums themselves.
Yes his playing itself was awesome, but it was more about his APPROACH to drumming, and being a showman behind the kit.

Bonham had that same physical intensity, but he was, simply, a player of much higher caliber.

No I can't, but anyone who knows drums would tell you it seems obvious, even Moon claimed that he just went with what he felt and didn't think to much about it. Maybe he did know exactly what he was doing everytime, note for note, live performances and basic knowledge of drums tells otherwise. Not saying he bullshited the drums, but when learning linear beats you'll find out there's a difference between playing a basic rock beat and going with a random fill that works based on the bread and butter of drumming, and then knowing where to place each note and why. All of Moon's fills went back to the bread and butters of rock drum fills, rolls and flams over 8th bass placements.



address this in my next post as well. Moon is impossible to replicate in style, in sound and actually notes he's definitely easier than Bohnam. I don't know a single drummer who will disagree that his drum lines are more simple to replicate.



You can explain to me why that is, because I don't totally get that. I was sure it was due to him using big band style tuned drums with hard rock tunings (since you can tune the head and back differently), giving him a wholly unique sound that if you don't know that would be impossible to replicate properly



I'm saying that because many drummers do agree with me. Cobham praises someone with a statement that people heavily misinterpret and now he's impossible to play at everything. Great drummers constantly rant about how they can't figure out what ringo does in A Day in the Life. Does that mean Ringo's hard to replicate? Ringo's known to be one of the easiest drummers to replicate for MOST of his drumlines, and then he has some like A Day in the Life which will never be replicated and probably not properly figured out. A Day in the Life's fills are far more complex to decipher than anything in any of Moon's drumming. Regardless, because Moon has a few things people can't figure out all of a sudden he's impossible to replicate his drumlines? The majority of his drumlines derive from rock beats with LOTS of rolls placed around the set. WGFA I'll agree is nearly impossible to replicate. Lots of his other stuff? A joke. His fills? Can be taken apart in minutes. I'd say most of the people who can't figure it out are people who never worked on transcribing or taking apart drumlines by ear, Moon's end up being very simple when examined. I haven't ever heard a drum say they don't know what Moon was drumming, I've heard them say they don't know what he's doing with the set, but his drumlines are generally basic. Drummers agree with me, that's why I'm saying this. If they don't, either a. I don't know what drummer you're talking about or b. they're all idiots who have no clue about the sounds of a kit or haven't listened to others drum thoroughly, which is important in developing your ability.



k I have no problem saying that



Moon used the same motifs for almost all his drumlines. He also used the basic rock beat in his work more than Bonham. Moon covers it up by placing rolls and sporadic pedaling whenever it begins to follow a pattern to break out of it. But he never changes that, and his rolls are easy as shit to play most of the time and easy to decipher. Playing it with the same feel and sound? Maybe that's harder. Then again I see tons of people play bohnam's drumlines and I never hear them with the same groove or sound as Bohnam.



Moon's palate consisted of rolls, 8th pedals, the basic rock drum beat (hi hat 8ths, snare on 2 and 4, bass pedal in between), and cymbal crashes or the 16th hi hat beat. That's it, that's all he ever used. Bonham's palate consisted of so much I don't really want to list it all, but other than rudiments, triplets, single pedal double strokes, tons of different grooves from half time shuffle to cowbell, some reggae style beats, swing beats, fills based on ratimacue's, linear drum fills, etc. Bohnam extended and combined in tons of different ways, Moon stuck to using only the absolute most basic of rock techniques to make his drum lines.



I said he went wild, not random. Random drummers sound like shit, wild drummers can still sound good if they know how to go crazy. There's a difference. Moon sounded good because he knew to stick to the most tried and true and basic of drumlines and beats, and just push them to the next level and in other directions. Even if you're playing wildly, as long as you stick to even rolls it'll sound acceptable. Moon knew what do stick to.




Just explained it above, as long as you know what bounds to stick to, you can be as wild as you want within those bounds. You stick to rolls and 8th pedals, or basic rock beats, be as wild as you want, if it's even it'll work as long as you don't do anything complex. Moon did NOTHING truly complex. Bonham had some complex beats that if you tried to extend out of the bounds unless you were a really good drummer you would fuck up.



Left foot lead ratamacue fill.



Bonham triplets, Bonham rock grooves (lots to list, half time shuffle, cowbell, downbeat swing, etc.), bonham single pedal 16ths, left foot lead ratamacue fill, bonham linear fills, etc. etc. They are actually named after him most of the time.


No it doesn't. As I showed, if Bruford's 1 Bonham is still 2.



Having stuff in common has nothing to do with placement. Ward, Copeland and Porcaro have little in common, what's that have to do with their placement?




Tell me what Moon had innovated, please. I have now given coherent and reasonable arguments for all of this. I'm not changing it and it seems you just misunderstand drums, but maybe you don't and are just a raging Moon fan, which is fine. But there is no way this list is changing. The only question is does Peart get 3 or Moon, and it comes down to who gets creativity. For now I've settled on Peart. That's the ONLY thing worth debating.

So no ideas on the Gadd/coluita thing?

Gotta love Clash.

Re: Gadd/Colaiutta, I'm not sure. How extensive is their influence within rock?

Oh and CRJ, you said a few pages back that Peart was staying at #3 and we were moving forward (as we should)...

His whole style is an innovation.

I don't know what's more breathtaking. That you think triplets are an example of Bonham's complexity, or that you think Keith Moon doesn't play triplets. TRIPLETS.

I'd send this whole conversation to my brother, who is an absolutely brilliant drummer, except that I fear it might give him a stroke.

I know, right? It's amazing. Fucking triplets!

I didn't know selective reading even existed.

Triplets one are not triplets as in tri-pa-let tri-pa-let etc, it's a fill pattern. I never said it's complex. It's quite simple. He led into his triplets with his left hand instead of the general approach of leading in with the pedal. This gave it a different sound that tons of people replicate. It's not complex at all, but he popularized it and made it a standardized rock pattern called Bonham triplets. I never once said it's complex. His half time shuffle groove is more complex than anything Moon's done however. If I showed my drum teacher, or any reasonable drummer these debates, they'd think it's funny you even make a case for Moon having technique. He WAS known for having horrible technique. That you say otherwise astounds me.


Also I've never heard Keith Moon play the triplets I'm talking of, at bonham's speed it does require some accuracy. The pattern is left hand right hand pedal, those triplets, and then you move them around the kit, like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1fXX3XBgSM