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 Post subject: Re: 150 Greatest Rock Drummers
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 10:23 am 
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzveeuFz ... re=related

In the full video, Steve Smith will proceed to teach you all of these grooves that are now rock staples for developing complex drum lines, many rock drummers when trying to get to a more technical and complex level of beat creation start can start with a john bohnam groove. Why are John Bohnam grooves such a huge deal? Because as he said they have a 'swing' feel, they are jazzy grooves that Bohnam made undeniably rock. This transformation is huge, these are HARD ROCK drum lines that allow people to groove with and build off of, these weren't in rock before and a huge deal. HUGE. When you start learning how to build off and out of drumlines, a groove is generally the most important place to start, adapting a swing groove to hard rock opened lots of doors for drummers who never thought to approach rock like that. Moon was a pure rock drummer, Bohnam pushed the boundaries of the instrument. His single pedal drumming did similar things, working on double kicks became important to smooth out some intricate drum parts that before, were not considered.


there's tons of these, from real professional drummers as well on their sites, they can spend half an hour on his triplets alone: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gAeuuF3Abg

There are hundreds of people on youtube who do this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2y3j_HDW ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4w1q8rdRA4U

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcp_XSTc ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJbYKP7Yi98

after Bohnam learned about proper tuning, he worked with professionals to get the sound he wanted, people love asking this guy about all of Bohnam's tuning, cause it's fascinating. Bohnam used tunings like in the Big Band era, something no one in rock did at the time as well.

You'll find some of this stuff for Peart as well, but not to the same degree as Bohnam. Moon? Good luck finding anything on people taking apart his drumlines. They are generally very simple.


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 Post subject: Re: 150 Greatest Rock Drummers
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 10:27 am 
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Classic Rock Junkie wrote:
I'm not sure I can take these seriously anymore. Moon had feeling and style, and yes was brilliant, but he never consciously thought about what he did with the drums to the degree Bonham.


Bullshit. You don't know that. You can't know that.

Classic Rock Junkie wrote:
And Moon's drumlines are MUCH easier to replicate, even with the same sound than Bonhams.


Also bullshit. Even Billy Cobham couldn't figure out what Moon was doing. No drummer says that about Bonham. Bonham is much easier to replicate.

Classic Rock Junkie wrote:
I don't think I've heard anyone replicate Bonhams sound properly


That's due to Jimmy Page's production, not John Bonham's style.

Classic Rock Junkie wrote:
Moon's are very easy to replicate. Moons' drumlines can be taken apart in hours. To accurately take apart all of a Bonham drumline takes far longer.


Everything you just typed is bullshit. No drummer agrees with you.

Classic Rock Junkie wrote:
I can see a Pollock comparison, but I would also Rembrandt, though not as daring as Pollock, had more skill with his paintings.


So? The point is that they're both brilliant fucking artists.

Classic Rock Junkie wrote:
Regardless of painting debate's, saying Bonhams style was easy and more conservative is bull.


It's easier to replicate than Moon's and more conservative than Moon's. The #1 thing that Keith Moon threw away was repetitive drum parts. The bulk of Bonham's recorded work is repetitive drums parts.

Classic Rock Junkie wrote:
If anything many of Moon's drumlines were more conservative and derivative than Bonhams.


Ridiculous.

Classic Rock Junkie wrote:
Not all of them, Moon had some crazy, wild performances, whose only reason they are truly non conservative is he just went absolutely wild.


You think he's just going wild, but that's not it at all. A drummer "just going wild" would sound like shit. Just as a painter just dripping splotches on a canvas willy nilly will produce shit.

Classic Rock Junkie wrote:
It's obvious that Moon just knew the right way to go wild,


And Jackson Pollock just knew the right way to drip paint willy nilly, right?

Classic Rock Junkie wrote:
Moon relied tons on rolls and cymbal smashes, it pretty much comes down to that for his fills. Bohnam had some extremely intricate fills, far more intricate and tactful than Moon.


Name one. And what the fuck is tactful? What makes Moon's fills less tactful?

Classic Rock Junkie wrote:
Regardless of being conservative, he invented so much knew drum vocabulary that it really doesn't matter, Keith Moon doesn't have anything over him.


What "new drum vocabulary" did John Bonham invent?

Classic Rock Junkie wrote:
So by the criteria, as always, Bruford should be number 1 for any reasonable criteria.


That's fine by me if that's the approach to the criteria that you want to take, but that necessitates Neil Peart at #2 and Bonham/Moon coming next at 3 and 4.

Classic Rock Junkie wrote:
You are unfairly lumping Peart and Bruford, who are very different, and Moon and Bohnam who are also different.


No, I'm not. Peart/Bruford have more in common with each other than they do with either Moon or Bonham, and Moon/Bonham have more in common with each other than with either Bruford or Peart.

Classic Rock Junkie wrote:
Bohnam vs. Moon

Influence: Bohnam
Innovation: Bohnam
Originality: Moon
Creativity: Bohnam
Skill: Bohnam
Stylistic Versatility: Tie, maybe Bonham, Moon ended up using just roll after roll over and over, even if each roll is different and wild, it's still rolls. Bohnam had grooves, reggae type beats, some swing beats, and also some mad rolls.


You just misspelled Bonham 6 of 7 times in that breakdown. What did Bonham innovate? What makes him more creative than Moon? I think Moon takes both of those categories.


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 Post subject: Re: 150 Greatest Rock Drummers
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 10:30 am 
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Classic Rock Junkie wrote:
Go to youtube, any drum instructor/lessons site that has a rock drumming category and just search 'john bohnam'. You search Moon you get videos of Moon playing or people covering his material, you search Bohnam you get tons of instructional videos on tons of different fills, beats, grooves, and techniques that people take apart and explain so that new rock drummers can learn these staples of the genre. Just search it.


That's because Bonham can be explained. Keith Moon can't. Even Billy Cobham couldn't figure him out.


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 Post subject: Re: 150 Greatest Rock Drummers
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 10:37 am 
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ClashWho wrote:
Classic Rock Junkie wrote:
Go to youtube, any drum instructor/lessons site that has a rock drumming category and just search 'john bohnam'. You search Moon you get videos of Moon playing or people covering his material, you search Bohnam you get tons of instructional videos on tons of different fills, beats, grooves, and techniques that people take apart and explain so that new rock drummers can learn these staples of the genre. Just search it.


That's because Bonham can be explained. Keith Moon can't. Even Billy Cobham couldn't figure him out.


that was a famous statement that The Jew addressed a while back. I don't know any drummer who CAN'T figure out Moon's drumlines. Cobham couldn't figure out how he was doing what he was doing. If Cobham sat down for 30 minutes and listened to any of Moon's drum pieces with enough attention I have no doubt he could figure them out. Moon's drumlines are widely considered easy to replicate note wise, impossible to replicate style wise. Bonham's are much easier to replicate style wise, but the intricacies of his beats go far deeper.


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 Post subject: Re: 150 Greatest Rock Drummers
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 11:09 am 
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Negative Creep wrote:
Or maybe it's the fact that Moon had shitty technique and no discipline.


No actual drummer thinks either of those things are true.

Negative Creep wrote:
Bonham's playing was much more musical and creative, and that appeals more to drum experts than a reckless powerhouse with no restraint.


Reckless? What's reckless about "Baba O'Riley" or "Pinball Wizard"?

Negative Creep wrote:
Your Rembrandt/Pollock analogy is pointless here because Moon was not an artist at all.


That's utter horseshit.


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 Post subject: Re: 150 Greatest Rock Drummers
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 11:19 am 
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Classic Rock Junkie wrote:
I don't know any drummer who CAN'T figure out Moon's drumlines.


I don't believe you.

Classic Rock Junkie wrote:
Cobham couldn't figure out how he was doing what he was doing. If Cobham sat down for 30 minutes and listened to any of Moon's drum pieces with enough attention I have no doubt he could figure them out.


The man said otherwise. He watched Keith Moon play for more than 30 minutes. There's another drummer, I wish I could remember which one, who thought he could figure Keith Moon out. He asked if he could sit behind Keith Moon during a concert, and was granted permission. He said he left more confused than before.

Classic Rock Junkie wrote:
Moon's drumlines are widely considered easy to replicate note wise, impossible to replicate style wise.


That makes no sense.

Classic Rock Junkie wrote:
Bonham's are much easier to replicate style wise, but the intricacies of his beats go far deeper.


No, they don't. Like what? What beat of Bonham's is so freaking intricate?


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 Post subject: Re: 150 Greatest Rock Drummers
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 11:31 am 
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Quote:
No actual drummer thinks either of those things are true.


You just said that CRJ couldn't possibly know what was in Moon's head when he played.
By the same token, how can YOU possibly know what every other drummer thinks? Did you take a worldwide survey?
It is not an opinion, but a FACT that he was primitive and careless. Technique was not his main concern, that's just how he was. Doesn't mean I love his playing any less.

Quote:
Reckless? What's reckless about "Baba O'Riley" or "Pinball Wizard"?


Those are still typical Moon drum lines, loud and bombastic.
He had a very poor sense of dynamics, as a drummer.

Quote:
That's utter horseshit.


You like Sarah Silverman.

Quote:
The man said otherwise. He watched Keith Moon play for more than 30 minutes.


Proof?

Quote:
That makes no sense.


Yes it does.
Ability and delivery are two different things. Moon did far more for the drummer than the drums themselves.
Yes his playing itself was awesome, but it was more about his APPROACH to drumming, and being a showman behind the kit.

Bonham had that same physical intensity, but he was, simply, a player of much higher caliber.


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 Post subject: Re: 150 Greatest Rock Drummers
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:53 pm 
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ClashWho wrote:
Bullshit. You don't know that. You can't know that.


No I can't, but anyone who knows drums would tell you it seems obvious, even Moon claimed that he just went with what he felt and didn't think to much about it. Maybe he did know exactly what he was doing everytime, note for note, live performances and basic knowledge of drums tells otherwise. Not saying he bullshited the drums, but when learning linear beats you'll find out there's a difference between playing a basic rock beat and going with a random fill that works based on the bread and butter of drumming, and then knowing where to place each note and why. All of Moon's fills went back to the bread and butters of rock drum fills, rolls and flams over 8th bass placements.

ClashWho wrote:
Also bullshit. Even Billy Cobham couldn't figure out what Moon was doing. No drummer says that about Bonham. Bonham is much easier to replicate.


address this in my next post as well. Moon is impossible to replicate in style, in sound and actually notes he's definitely easier than Bohnam. I don't know a single drummer who will disagree that his drum lines are more simple to replicate.

ClashWho wrote:

That's due to Jimmy Page's production, not John Bonham's style.


You can explain to me why that is, because I don't totally get that. I was sure it was due to him using big band style tuned drums with hard rock tunings (since you can tune the head and back differently), giving him a wholly unique sound that if you don't know that would be impossible to replicate properly

ClashWho wrote:

Everything you just typed is bullshit. No drummer agrees with you.


I'm saying that because many drummers do agree with me. Cobham praises someone with a statement that people heavily misinterpret and now he's impossible to play at everything. Great drummers constantly rant about how they can't figure out what ringo does in A Day in the Life. Does that mean Ringo's hard to replicate? Ringo's known to be one of the easiest drummers to replicate for MOST of his drumlines, and then he has some like A Day in the Life which will never be replicated and probably not properly figured out. A Day in the Life's fills are far more complex to decipher than anything in any of Moon's drumming. Regardless, because Moon has a few things people can't figure out all of a sudden he's impossible to replicate his drumlines? The majority of his drumlines derive from rock beats with LOTS of rolls placed around the set. WGFA I'll agree is nearly impossible to replicate. Lots of his other stuff? A joke. His fills? Can be taken apart in minutes. I'd say most of the people who can't figure it out are people who never worked on transcribing or taking apart drumlines by ear, Moon's end up being very simple when examined. I haven't ever heard a drum say they don't know what Moon was drumming, I've heard them say they don't know what he's doing with the set, but his drumlines are generally basic. Drummers agree with me, that's why I'm saying this. If they don't, either a. I don't know what drummer you're talking about or b. they're all idiots who have no clue about the sounds of a kit or haven't listened to others drum thoroughly, which is important in developing your ability.

Keith Moon wrote:

So? The point is that they're both brilliant fucking artists.


k I have no problem saying that

ClashWho wrote:
It's easier to replicate than Moon's and more conservative than Moon's. The #1 thing that Keith Moon threw away was repetitive drum parts. The bulk of Bonham's recorded work is repetitive drums parts.


Moon used the same motifs for almost all his drumlines. He also used the basic rock beat in his work more than Bonham. Moon covers it up by placing rolls and sporadic pedaling whenever it begins to follow a pattern to break out of it. But he never changes that, and his rolls are easy as shit to play most of the time and easy to decipher. Playing it with the same feel and sound? Maybe that's harder. Then again I see tons of people play bohnam's drumlines and I never hear them with the same groove or sound as Bohnam.

ClashWho wrote:
If anything many of Moon's drumlines were more conservative and derivative than Bonhams.


Moon's palate consisted of rolls, 8th pedals, the basic rock drum beat (hi hat 8ths, snare on 2 and 4, bass pedal in between), and cymbal crashes or the 16th hi hat beat. That's it, that's all he ever used. Bonham's palate consisted of so much I don't really want to list it all, but other than rudiments, triplets, single pedal double strokes, tons of different grooves from half time shuffle to cowbell, some reggae style beats, swing beats, fills based on ratimacue's, linear drum fills, etc. Bohnam extended and combined in tons of different ways, Moon stuck to using only the absolute most basic of rock techniques to make his drum lines.

ClashWho wrote:
You think he's just going wild, but that's not it at all. A drummer "just going wild" would sound like shit. Just as a painter just dripping splotches on a canvas willy nilly will produce shit.


I said he went wild, not random. Random drummers sound like shit, wild drummers can still sound good if they know how to go crazy. There's a difference. Moon sounded good because he knew to stick to the most tried and true and basic of drumlines and beats, and just push them to the next level and in other directions. Even if you're playing wildly, as long as you stick to even rolls it'll sound acceptable. Moon knew what do stick to.


ClashWho wrote:
And Jackson Pollock just knew the right way to drip paint willy nilly, right?


Just explained it above, as long as you know what bounds to stick to, you can be as wild as you want within those bounds. You stick to rolls and 8th pedals, or basic rock beats, be as wild as you want, if it's even it'll work as long as you don't do anything complex. Moon did NOTHING truly complex. Bonham had some complex beats that if you tried to extend out of the bounds unless you were a really good drummer you would fuck up.

ClashWho wrote:

Name one. And what the fuck is tactful? What makes Moon's fills less tactful?


Left foot lead ratamacue fill.

ClashWho wrote:
What "new drum vocabulary" did John Bonham invent?


Bonham triplets, Bonham rock grooves (lots to list, half time shuffle, cowbell, downbeat swing, etc.), bonham single pedal 16ths, left foot lead ratamacue fill, bonham linear fills, etc. etc. They are actually named after him most of the time.

ClashWho wrote:
That's fine by me if that's the approach to the criteria that you want to take, but that necessitates Neil Peart at #2 and Bonham/Moon coming next at 3 and 4.

No it doesn't. As I showed, if Bruford's 1 Bonham is still 2.

ClashWho wrote:
No, I'm not. Peart/Bruford have more in common with each other than they do with either Moon or Bonham, and Moon/Bonham have more in common with each other than with either Bruford or Peart.


Having stuff in common has nothing to do with placement. Ward, Copeland and Porcaro have little in common, what's that have to do with their placement?

ClashWho wrote:

You just misspelled Bonham 6 of 7 times in that breakdown. What did Bonham innovate? What makes him more creative than Moon? I think Moon takes both of those categories.



Tell me what Moon had innovated, please. I have now given coherent and reasonable arguments for all of this. I'm not changing it and it seems you just misunderstand drums, but maybe you don't and are just a raging Moon fan, which is fine. But there is no way this list is changing. The only question is does Peart get 3 or Moon, and it comes down to who gets creativity. For now I've settled on Peart. That's the ONLY thing worth debating.


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 Post subject: Re: 150 Greatest Rock Drummers
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:03 pm 
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So no ideas on the Gadd/coluita thing?


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 Post subject: Re: 150 Greatest Rock Drummers
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:13 pm 
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Gotta love Clash. :lol:

Re: Gadd/Colaiutta, I'm not sure. How extensive is their influence within rock?

Oh and CRJ, you said a few pages back that Peart was staying at #3 and we were moving forward (as we should)... :eh:


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 Post subject: Re: 150 Greatest Rock Drummers
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:29 pm 
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Classic Rock Junkie wrote:
Tell me what Moon had innovated, please.


His whole style is an innovation.

I don't know what's more breathtaking. That you think triplets are an example of Bonham's complexity, or that you think Keith Moon doesn't play triplets. TRIPLETS.

I'd send this whole conversation to my brother, who is an absolutely brilliant drummer, except that I fear it might give him a stroke.


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 Post subject: Re: 150 Greatest Rock Drummers
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:38 pm 
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Location: Matthew McConaughey has won the Oscar for Best Actor in-- "You think you know me..." Shit.
:facepalm:


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 Post subject: Re: 150 Greatest Rock Drummers
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:40 pm 
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I know, right? It's amazing. Fucking triplets!


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 Post subject: Re: 150 Greatest Rock Drummers
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:43 pm 
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I didn't know selective reading even existed.


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 Post subject: Re: 150 Greatest Rock Drummers
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 2:16 pm 
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ClashWho wrote:
Classic Rock Junkie wrote:
Tell me what Moon had innovated, please.


His whole style is an innovation.

I don't know what's more breathtaking. That you think triplets are an example of Bonham's complexity, or that you think Keith Moon doesn't play triplets. TRIPLETS.

I'd send this whole conversation to my brother, who is an absolutely brilliant drummer, except that I fear it might give him a stroke.


Triplets one are not triplets as in tri-pa-let tri-pa-let etc, it's a fill pattern. I never said it's complex. It's quite simple. He led into his triplets with his left hand instead of the general approach of leading in with the pedal. This gave it a different sound that tons of people replicate. It's not complex at all, but he popularized it and made it a standardized rock pattern called Bonham triplets. I never once said it's complex. His half time shuffle groove is more complex than anything Moon's done however. If I showed my drum teacher, or any reasonable drummer these debates, they'd think it's funny you even make a case for Moon having technique. He WAS known for having horrible technique. That you say otherwise astounds me.


Also I've never heard Keith Moon play the triplets I'm talking of, at bonham's speed it does require some accuracy. The pattern is left hand right hand pedal, those triplets, and then you move them around the kit, like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1fXX3XBgSM


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