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 Post subject: Re: 150 Greatest Rock Drummers
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 12:36 pm 
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ariel wrote:
thejew wrote:
ariel wrote:
What's your problem? Quit the hostile tone man I'm just enjoying throwing my thoughts out there.

Yes Ringo squashes Lombardo in influence. This is a lol

When did Lombardo play punk? And besides punk drumming is very similar to thrash drumming, it's not really a stretch for a thrash drummer to play punk I'd imagine

Starr had to adapt to all the different genres of music the Beatles did so he had to be versatile. Compare 1963 Starr to 1969 Starr. Compare 1969 Starr to 1990s Starr. Compare "A Day in the Life" to "Rain" to "A Hard Day's Night" to "I Saw Her Standing There" to "Can't Buy Me Love" to "You Won't See Me" to "She Said She Said" to "Tomorrow Never Knows" to "Come Together" to "Oh! Darling" to "I Want You (She's So Heavy)" to "The End"...etc. He had to adapt to the different moods and textures of the different Lennon/McCartney/Harrison songs. There is GREAT stylistic growth and versatility in his playing over the Beatles' career from what I can tell.

Again I'm not a drummer but this is my impression.

Uhhh what? As far applying directly the drumming, and not to a band popularity contest, Ringo is probably equally as influential as Lombardo. Even if you divide influence up:

Direct Influence on drummers - Tie
Impact - Lombardo
Popularity - Starr

There isn't a Metal drummer that isn't influenced by Dave, while there are plenty of Rock drummers than don't credit Starr as an influence (though there are plenty that do). Lombardo's influence has spread even outside of Metal, since some Rock drummers now occasionally like to do some machine gun pedaling (though normally not very fast).

You seem to be thinking that just because the Beatles changed styles a bit, that Starr's drumming did dramatic stylistic changes, which simply isn't true. He did evolve a bit as the band changed, and got more creative, but it isn't a dramatic enough change for him to get versatility over Lombardo, who's played Metal, Jazz, as well as Punk, and whatever you'd consider Fantomas. Anyways, enough of my ranting:

Starr v Lombardo:

Influence - Tie
Innovation - Lombardo
Tech - Lombardo
Creativity - Starr
Versatility - Lombardo

Oh, and Carey definitely > Starr. I already did my breakdown of that. Even if you tied Innovation between the two, Carey still wins Skill, Creativity and Versatility with relative ease, despite him having little influence.


Starr doesn't tie Lombardo in influence. Come on dude. Influence isn't just determined by how many names name the dude as an influence. You have to take indirect influence into account too or Travis Barker would have a MAD influence score on a list like this, more than he deserves.

Starr's innovations and playing were listened to by millions and influenced millions more who didn't directly listen to the Beatles.

I reckon all rock drummers are influenced, directly or indirectly, by Starr. Yes, that dwarfs Dave's metal influence.

How in god's name does L. win 'impact', whatever that is? Starr's impact on the drum community was f'n ridiculous when the Beatles broke in America in '64.

Rock drummers who've adopted metal techniques have probably gotten them more from Ulrich than Lombardo. Slayer hasn't sold many records, Metallica has. Mostly just metalheads listen to/are familiar with Slayer, rock fans know Metallica well.

I can't consider it reasonable to give Lombardo innovation over Starr, it might be a tie MAYBE I think.

When did Dave play jazz?

And like I said I'm okay with Carey>Ringo really.

Apologies for my accusatory tone Human but there did seem to be a bit of an 'edge' in your tone esp. on your first post to me. But I might have overreacted

Anyway, I'm just trying to think out loud here basically. Enjoying the discourse folks :-)


dude thejew has it right. Starr is a huge influence on rock drumming and Lombardo has a huge influence on Heavy Metal drumming. That's a tie. Even if Starr won on influence it wouldn't matter because Lombardo has three guaranteed wins (Innovation, Skill, Versatility). Starr is an important drummer, but Lombardo beats him in criteria AT LEAST 3-2.

Also, when we talk about influence, it is how many professional drummers you influence, not kids. Lombardo has influence every metal drummer after him, while there is a list (not big) of drummers who weren't influence by Starr.

Hey, I think Lombardo is overrated and I prefer Starr over him, but the criteria never lies. Lombardo beats Starr :smile:


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 Post subject: Re: 150 Greatest Rock Drummers
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 12:38 pm 
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Rock is massively, massively bigger than heavy metal. By your reasoning Geezer Butler should tie like the Ox in influence on the bassists list.

I'm still wondering how L. beats Starr in innovation...


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 Post subject: Re: 150 Greatest Rock Drummers
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 12:46 pm 
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ariel wrote:
Rock is massively, massively bigger than heavy metal. By your reasoning Geezer Butler should tie like the Ox in influence on the bassists list.

I'm still wondering how L. beats Starr in innovation...


Double-bass. Lombardo is more innovative, sorry. Not by much. Even if they tie on that Lombardo would still win
Also on the bassist list, I just said Butler was more influential than JPJ. He's certainly not more influential than The Ox.

Influence- Tie
Innovation- Tie
Skill- Lombardo
Creativity- Starr
Versatility- Lombardo


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 Post subject: Re: 150 Greatest Rock Drummers
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 12:54 pm 
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ariel wrote:
thejew wrote:
ariel wrote:
What's your problem? Quit the hostile tone man I'm just enjoying throwing my thoughts out there.

Yes Ringo squashes Lombardo in influence. This is a lol

When did Lombardo play punk? And besides punk drumming is very similar to thrash drumming, it's not really a stretch for a thrash drummer to play punk I'd imagine

Starr had to adapt to all the different genres of music the Beatles did so he had to be versatile. Compare 1963 Starr to 1969 Starr. Compare 1969 Starr to 1990s Starr. Compare "A Day in the Life" to "Rain" to "A Hard Day's Night" to "I Saw Her Standing There" to "Can't Buy Me Love" to "You Won't See Me" to "She Said She Said" to "Tomorrow Never Knows" to "Come Together" to "Oh! Darling" to "I Want You (She's So Heavy)" to "The End"...etc. He had to adapt to the different moods and textures of the different Lennon/McCartney/Harrison songs. There is GREAT stylistic growth and versatility in his playing over the Beatles' career from what I can tell.

Again I'm not a drummer but this is my impression.

Uhhh what? As far applying directly the drumming, and not to a band popularity contest, Ringo is probably equally as influential as Lombardo. Even if you divide influence up:

Direct Influence on drummers - Tie
Impact - Lombardo
Popularity - Starr

There isn't a Metal drummer that isn't influenced by Dave, while there are plenty of Rock drummers than don't credit Starr as an influence (though there are plenty that do). Lombardo's influence has spread even outside of Metal, since some Rock drummers now occasionally like to do some machine gun pedaling (though normally not very fast).

You seem to be thinking that just because the Beatles changed styles a bit, that Starr's drumming did dramatic stylistic changes, which simply isn't true. He did evolve a bit as the band changed, and got more creative, but it isn't a dramatic enough change for him to get versatility over Lombardo, who's played Metal, Jazz, as well as Punk, and whatever you'd consider Fantomas. Anyways, enough of my ranting:

Starr v Lombardo:

Influence - Tie
Innovation - Lombardo
Tech - Lombardo
Creativity - Starr
Versatility - Lombardo

Oh, and Carey definitely > Starr. I already did my breakdown of that. Even if you tied Innovation between the two, Carey still wins Skill, Creativity and Versatility with relative ease, despite him having little influence.


Starr doesn't tie Lombardo in influence. Come on dude. Influence isn't just determined by how many names name the dude as an influence. You have to take indirect influence into account too or Travis Barker would have a MAD influence score on a list like this, more than he deserves.

Starr's innovations and playing were listened to by millions and influenced millions more who didn't directly listen to the Beatles.

I reckon all rock drummers are influenced, directly or indirectly, by Starr. Yes, that dwarfs Dave's metal influence.

How in god's name does L. win 'impact', whatever that is? Starr's impact on the drum community was f'n ridiculous when the Beatles broke in America in '64.

Rock drummers who've adopted metal techniques have probably gotten them more from Ulrich than Lombardo. Slayer hasn't sold many records, Metallica has. Mostly just metalheads listen to/are familiar with Slayer, rock fans know Metallica well.

I can't consider it reasonable to give Lombardo innovation over Starr, it might be a tie MAYBE I think.

When did Dave play jazz?

And like I said I'm okay with Carey>Ringo really.

Apologies for my accusatory tone Human but there did seem to be a bit of an 'edge' in your tone esp. on your first post to me. But I might have overreacted

Anyway, I'm just trying to think out loud here basically. Enjoying the discourse folks :-)

Lombardo also has just as much indirect influence as Starr. Both of them have ridiculous amounts of influence throughout drumming, so there's no way you can have a clear winner there. And Barker is much more popular than he is influential.

Impact is how much you affect the drumming world when your first exposed to the music world basically. No one had ever heard anything like the way Lombardo drummed when he first came out. "Holy Fuck" had to be the only appropriate response to his rapid double-bass pedaling of 16th notes at a high tempo.

Starr's innovations were "shared" I guess you can say. He didn't do too much more than Hal Blaine did, and Blaine preceded him.

For the record, Ulrich sucks. He's pretty influential too though, but no where near Lombardo, he just has popularity.

He played Jazz after he left Slayer in the 90s, though I don't know if he released any recorded material.

And Human wasn't addressing you with a harsh tone, that's just his posting style really.


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 Post subject: Re: 150 Greatest Rock Drummers
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 12:58 pm 
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Posts: 373
Quote:
Lombardo also has just as much indirect influence as Starr. Both of them have ridiculous amounts of influence throughout drumming, so there's no way you can have a clear winner there. And Barker is much more popular than he is influential.

Impact is how much you affect the drumming world when your first exposed to the music world basically. No one had ever heard anything like the way Lombardo drummed when he first came out. "Holy Fuck" had to be the only appropriate response to his rapid double-bass pedaling of 16th notes at a high tempo.

Starr's innovations were "shared" I guess you can say. He didn't do too much more than Hal Blaine did, and Blaine preceded him.

For the record, Ulrich sucks. He's pretty influential too though, but no where near Lombardo, he just has popularity.

He played Jazz after he left Slayer in the 90s, though I don't know if he released any recorded material.

And Human wasn't addressing you with a harsh tone, that's just his posting style really.


I actually think Ulrich is a really good drummer. Sure, he might be an asshole but overall I think he is a very good drummer.


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 Post subject: Re: 150 Greatest Rock Drummers
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 12:59 pm 
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BayPineapple wrote:
ariel wrote:
Rock is massively, massively bigger than heavy metal. By your reasoning Geezer Butler should tie like the Ox in influence on the bassists list.

I'm still wondering how L. beats Starr in innovation...


Double-bass. Lombardo is more innovative, sorry. Not by much. Even if they tie on that Lombardo would still win
Also on the bassist list, I just said Butler was more influential than JPJ. He's certainly not more influential than The Ox.

Influence- Tie
Innovation- Tie
Skill- Lombardo
Creativity- Starr
Versatility- Lombardo


I wasn't referring to your post on the bassists list. I agree with you there and appreciate the support.

What I mean is that if metal influence were equal in the 'influence' score as rock influence, as you seem to think it is on this list, Geez would be like #3 on the bassists list. Which is wrong

Double bass drumming was not invented by Lombardo, nor was it pioneered in metal by Lombardo. He popularized it somewhat. If anything his innovation comes from elevating the status of the drums in thrash/extreme metal to being a sort of 'lead' instrument, and adding a jazzy, swinging touch.

There is NO WAY Lombardo ties Starr in influence.

Influence - Starr (by a lot)
Innovation - Starr (by a little)
Creativity - L. (by a decent amt. but not a huge amt.)
Versatility - L. (by a decent amt. but not by a huge amt.)
Tech - L. (lol)

That seems about right to me...assuming L. actually has played jazz (is this true? no one has answered me yet)


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 Post subject: Re: 150 Greatest Rock Drummers
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 1:03 pm 
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Posts: 373
ariel wrote:
BayPineapple wrote:
ariel wrote:
Rock is massively, massively bigger than heavy metal. By your reasoning Geezer Butler should tie like the Ox in influence on the bassists list.

I'm still wondering how L. beats Starr in innovation...


Double-bass. Lombardo is more innovative, sorry. Not by much. Even if they tie on that Lombardo would still win
Also on the bassist list, I just said Butler was more influential than JPJ. He's certainly not more influential than The Ox.

Influence- Tie
Innovation- Tie
Skill- Lombardo
Creativity- Starr
Versatility- Lombardo


I wasn't referring to your post on the bassists list. I agree with you there and appreciate the support.

What I mean is that if metal influence were equal in the 'influence' score as rock influence, as you seem to think it is on this list, Geez would be like #3 on the bassists list. Which is wrong

Double bass drumming was not invented by Lombardo, nor was it pioneered in metal by Lombardo. He popularized it somewhat. If anything his innovation comes from elevating the status of the drums in thrash/extreme metal to being a sort of 'lead' instrument, and adding a jazzy, swinging touch.

There is NO WAY Lombardo ties Starr in influence.

Influence - Starr (by a lot)
Innovation - Starr (by a little)
Creativity - L. (by a decent amt. but not a huge amt.)
Versatility - L. (by a decent amt. but not by a huge amt.)
Tech - L. (lol)

That seems about right to me...assuming L. actually has played jazz (is this true? no one has answered me yet)


Yes, Lombardo has played jazz. Also, Lombardo's main influence comes from the song Angel of Death. Also, the entire Reign In Blood album is more influential to drumming than any album Starr played drums on. Lombardo is just as influential because he is the most influential metal drummer while Starr isn't even the most influential rock drummer (that goes to Hal Blaine).


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 Post subject: Re: 150 Greatest Rock Drummers
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 1:03 pm 
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ariel wrote:
BayPineapple wrote:
ariel wrote:
Rock is massively, massively bigger than heavy metal. By your reasoning Geezer Butler should tie like the Ox in influence on the bassists list.

I'm still wondering how L. beats Starr in innovation...


Double-bass. Lombardo is more innovative, sorry. Not by much. Even if they tie on that Lombardo would still win
Also on the bassist list, I just said Butler was more influential than JPJ. He's certainly not more influential than The Ox.

Influence- Tie
Innovation- Tie
Skill- Lombardo
Creativity- Starr
Versatility- Lombardo


I wasn't referring to your post on the bassists list. I agree with you there and appreciate the support.

What I mean is that if metal influence were equal in the 'influence' score as rock influence, as you seem to think it is on this list, Geez would be like #3 on the bassists list. Which is wrong

Double bass drumming was not invented by Lombardo, nor was it pioneered in metal by Lombardo. He popularized it somewhat. If anything his innovation comes from elevating the status of the drums in thrash/extreme metal to being a sort of 'lead' instrument, and adding a jazzy, swinging touch.

There is NO WAY Lombardo ties Starr in influence.

Influence - Starr (by a lot)
Innovation - Starr (by a little)
Creativity - L. (by a decent amt. but not a huge amt.)
Versatility - L. (by a decent amt. but not by a huge amt.)
Tech - L. (lol)

That seems about right to me...assuming L. actually has played jazz (is this true? no one has answered me yet)

Read my post, I have answered it. And fine, give Starr influence. Lombardo still wins the other 4. And he wasn't the first to use double bass, but no one had used it like that. Before Lombardo the most the double bass was used for was the occasional flam, he made it into high-tempo 16th notes driving the beat.


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 Post subject: Re: 150 Greatest Rock Drummers
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 1:05 pm 
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Posts: 373
Lombardo>Starr :smile:
Starr>Portnoy :sad:


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 Post subject: Re: 150 Greatest Rock Drummers
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 2:33 pm 
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Posts: 9
Neil Peart ahead of Charlie Watts???
Are u joking???

Influence- Watts
Innovation- Watts
Skill- Watts
Creativity- Watts
Versatility- Watts

Peart has no skill. A 3 year old could play his junk.


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 Post subject: Re: 150 Greatest Rock Drummers
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 2:35 pm 
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Chezlovakia wrote:
Neil Peart ahead of Charlie Watts???
Are u joking???

Influence- Watts
Innovation- Watts
Skill- Watts
Creativity- Watts
Versatility- Watts

Peart has no skill. A 3 year old could play his junk.


If you want to troll, try something better. :cop:


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 Post subject: Re: 150 Greatest Rock Drummers
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 2:41 pm 
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Posts: 9
Timitzii wrote:
Chezlovakia wrote:
Neil Peart ahead of Charlie Watts???
Are u joking???

Influence- Watts
Innovation- Watts
Skill- Watts
Creativity- Watts
Versatility- Watts

Peart has no skill. A 3 year old could play his junk.


If you want to troll, try something better. :cop:


I'm not trolling, I just hate Rush so much and I am a huge Rolling Stones fan.
Of course Peart is "greater"
But I like Watts a lot more
I guess my subjectivity won't change anything


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 Post subject: Re: 150 Greatest Rock Drummers
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 2:46 pm 
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Dude, you got it all backwards

Influence, Innovation, Skill, Creativity, Versatility- Peart

Peart is the greatest drummer of all time.


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 Post subject: Re: 150 Greatest Rock Drummers
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 2:47 pm 
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Posts: 8677
Location: Finland
Chezlovakia wrote:
Timitzii wrote:
Chezlovakia wrote:
Neil Peart ahead of Charlie Watts???
Are u joking???

Influence- Watts
Innovation- Watts
Skill- Watts
Creativity- Watts
Versatility- Watts

Peart has no skill. A 3 year old could play his junk.


If you want to troll, try something better. :cop:


I'm not trolling, I just hate Rush so much and I am a huge Rolling Stones fan.
Of course Peart is "greater"
But I like Watts a lot more
I guess my subjectivity won't change anything


Awww, come on, even if you HATE Rush, you can't say that "NEIL PEART CAN'T PLAY"... He is one of the most skilled rock drummers ever made and calling him "NO SKILL" and "3 YEAR COULD PLAY HIS STUFF" just lowers your reputation among other people and showcases ignorance.

I dislike Neil Young's "Cinnamon Girl's" solo too but I can't deny it's reputation and acclaim.

Each to their own... :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: 150 Greatest Rock Drummers
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 3:11 pm 
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Posts: 373
Why is everybody so obsessed about their reputation on a forum. That's just completely stupid to me. Everybody is trying so fucking hard to get into that encyclopedia, which is bullshit anyways.


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