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 Post subject: Re: 150 Greatest Rock Drummers
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 9:32 pm 
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souljacker wrote:
Classic Rock Junkie wrote:
Where he is, number 3. I see no reason to move him. No way he beats bruford, the only place he can move is number 1 (he's not moving down) and for any explanation to make peart 1 would therefore make bruford 1 instead. Bohnam is 1 because he is bohnam. He does very well by the criteria to begin with (probably number 2 or 3 Bruford DOES beat him, Peart arguable but I don't think so) and being THE most important and greatest rock drummer lands him number 1 pretty fairly. So Peart will remain at 3 unless someone convinces me Keith Moon beats him. Otherwise this top 5 is pretty much locked as far as I'm concerned.



Is he not number 1 at the moment? With Bruford in 7th? Or is this the new list that has yet to be updated?


This brings up a good point, CRJ when you feel comfy with the top 30 it might be a good juncture to hit up Lew and update the list on the main DDD site to reflect this new list. I'm going to do that with the bass list at some point


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 Post subject: Re: 150 Greatest Rock Drummers
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 11:08 pm 
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Ariel wrote:
Negative Creep wrote:
I'm glad you mentioned dynamics. Imo, it's one of the most important skills a drummer can possess. I also totally agree that Portnoy has a very weak dynamic sense (a lot like Keith Moon did), and that is one skill that definitely separates the men from the boys, when it comes to drumming.
Think Carl Palmer, Bill Bruford, etc.


Watch Dream Theater's live 'cover' of Heart of the Sunrise on youtube. It's hilarious seeing Mike not even attempt to play it the Bruford style since he knows he doesn't have the dynamics ability to pull it off.


Oh wow I have to see that. :lol:

I think we're being too hard on Mike though.
Do you watch That Metal Show? He was a musical guest on there recently, and I seen him doing some short solos in between commercial breaks, and the dude was doing some CRAZY ass shit. Major coordination going on.
But yeah, no way he tops Carey or anyone like that, he's fine where he is.

Oh, speaking of Heart Of The Sunrise, I've just ordered the Fragile album.
Fuck yes, Bruford!
I gotta say that Anderson and Squire are just as much the reason for me getting this album though.
Maybe too many filler tracks, but the highlights are absolutley sensational.
I only put Heart Of The Sunrise behind Yours Is No Disgrace as the best Yes song.

Cheers Ariel, I'll probably have some more metal links for you soon (or maybe a different style of music if you prefer, I know you like the heavy psych stuff from the late 60's/early 70's).


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 Post subject: Re: 150 Greatest Rock Drummers
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:47 am 
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alright so anyone have any issues with top 25 or ready to move on?


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 Post subject: Re: 150 Greatest Rock Drummers
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 9:06 am 
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Put Copeland ahead of Carey and I think we're all good.


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 Post subject: Re: 150 Greatest Rock Drummers
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 9:41 am 
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Negative Creep wrote:
Put Copeland ahead of Carey and I think we're all good.


already done ;)


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 Post subject: Re: 150 Greatest Rock Drummers
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 11:41 am 
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It's nice to see 2 sets of my faves (Alexander and Beauford) (Copeland and Carey) next to one another. Did anyone do a Beauford vs Alexander ?


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 Post subject: Re: 150 Greatest Rock Drummers
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 1:02 pm 
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Ariel wrote:
thejew wrote:
Didn't we have a points system at one time? Something like:

Influence = 2.0
Innovation = 1.5
Creativity = 1.0 (or was it 1.5? I forget)
Versatility = 1.0
Skill = 1.0
Originality = 1.0

That way guys like Gene Hoglan and Sean Reinert wouldn't slaughter everyone due to their skills. Going by that system, Copeland wins with 4.5 points easily with Influence, Innovation and Versatility. Even giving Carey the other 3 criterions only gives him 3.0 (or 3.5) points.


The points system was silently - and rightly, if you ask me - dropped when CRJ took over or shortly thereafter. It's artificial and frankly would mess up the list imo. I understand the intentions behind it though. Since CRJ took over we've more been evaluating all criteria equally but with influence and innovation weighing sort of more, but not in a points way. That way it's less artificial and cumbersome.

thejew wrote:
Also, to elaborate, I don't want Portnoy raised higher, especially since I hate the guy. I just don't think the gap between his placement and Carey's should be anywhere near that dramatic. 6-8 spots apart would seem fitting, not 17.


Carey is the consummate drummer-as-artist. Portnoy is a wanker who largely coasts on popularity and the fact that he used to do interesting things on the kit, like in the mid 90s. The gap really I think is there to express that. Carey's artistic development and growth, his refinement in his playing, his finesse and subtlety...the same things we love Bruford for. Being an icon or Great in a particular direction of drumming, like THE drummer-as-artist or THE drummer-as-showman (Carey is among 'the' drummer as artists) sort of gives unspoken 'bonus points' in terms of a drummer's list placement, I've noticed (and pushed for, hehe).

thejew wrote:
Never really realized but Martin Lopez is way too high on this list. No way should he be the highest rated Death Metal drummer (and there really shouldn't be too many DM drummers on here anyway, aside from Hoglan, Reinert and maybe Flynn, but even he lacks in influence and innovation by quite a bit).


You're forgetting Richard Christy :wink:


Well the points system could certainly mess things up. As long as influence and innovation are weighted higher, then everything is fine.

Carey is great and all, but so many Tool fans worship him like some sort of deity or something. It's disturbing, and if they bothered to listen to Cobham or Chambers then they'd realize that Carey isn't the 'perfect' drummer.

Christy has mad skills, but he's sloppy as fuck. Although, so is Pridgen, and he's still highly regarded on the skill lists (and I guess this list considering his lack of influence).


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 Post subject: Re: 150 Greatest Rock Drummers
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 1:03 pm 
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Ariel wrote:
thejew wrote:
Also, on the skill list, I'm all for Limb Independence and Dynamics to be added.


How about tom work and snare work?


Those are already covered with Rolls.


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 Post subject: Re: 150 Greatest Rock Drummers
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 1:06 pm 
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Yousha wrote:
It's nice to see 2 sets of my faves (Alexander and Beauford) (Copeland and Carey) next to one another. Did anyone do a Beauford vs Alexander ?


Beauford and Alexander are among my faves as well. I haven't seen a comparison of the two as of yet. Something like:

Influence - Alexander (?)
Innovation - Alexander (?)
Creativity - Beauford
Skill - Beauford? Tie?
Versatility - Beauford
Originality - Alexander

Idk, someone else compare the two. I have no clue who's more influential lol.


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 Post subject: Re: 150 Greatest Rock Drummers
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:40 pm 
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thejew wrote:
Yousha wrote:
It's nice to see 2 sets of my faves (Alexander and Beauford) (Copeland and Carey) next to one another. Did anyone do a Beauford vs Alexander ?


Beauford and Alexander are among my faves as well. I haven't seen a comparison of the two as of yet. Something like:

Influence - Alexander (?)
Innovation - Alexander (?)
Creativity - Beauford
Skill - Beauford? Tie?
Versatility - Beauford
Originality - Alexander

Idk, someone else compare the two. I have no clue who's more influential lol.


I have not clue on influence. Beauford gets skill. Other than that you have it right IMO. And about the points system, all I have is Influence is weighted twice as much as all other categories, innovation is the tie breaker (hence slight weight there as well). So occasionally I do compare by 'points' but it's more not actually weighted criteria but by wins of criteria. If you win influence, you get 2 wins, since it's weighted twice as much as the rest (this is a greatest list). Everything else counts evenly, a win in a criteria is a win. At the end if it's a tie whoever won innovation wins.


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 Post subject: Re: 150 Greatest Rock Drummers
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:55 pm 
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Quote:
Carey is great and all, but so many Tool fans worship him like some sort of deity or something. It's disturbing, and if they bothered to listen to Cobham or Chambers then they'd realize that Carey isn't the 'perfect' drummer.


I dont recall anyone ever saying Carey was the best in the world.
OF COURSE there's always someone better, unless you're Vinnie of course. :razz:


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 Post subject: Re: 150 Greatest Rock Drummers
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 11:14 pm 
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ringo should go lower. copeland should be in top 10 he is incredibly skilled. baker fits better at #2


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 Post subject: Re: 150 Greatest Rock Drummers
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 12:49 am 
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Negative Creep wrote:

Oh wow I have to see that. :lol:

I think we're being too hard on Mike though.
Do you watch That Metal Show? He was a musical guest on there recently, and I seen him doing some short solos in between commercial breaks, and the dude was doing some CRAZY ass shit. Major coordination going on.


The thing is he lacks finesse, subtlety and development to such an extreme degree it's laughable, like a walking punchline, for a drummer with so much skill and discipline. It's hilarious.

His talent is off the charts but that's it, just talent and chops. No refinement, no subtlety, no finesse. To a hilarious degree.

Negative Creep wrote:
Oh, speaking of Heart Of The Sunrise, I've just ordered the Fragile album.
Fuck yes, Bruford!
I gotta say that Anderson and Squire are just as much the reason for me getting this album though.
Maybe too many filler tracks, but the highlights are absolutley sensational.
I only put Heart Of The Sunrise behind Yours Is No Disgrace as the best Yes song.


Haha what do you think of the individual solo instrument tracks? Like Bruford's hilarious one

Negative Creep wrote:
Cheers Ariel, I'll probably have some more metal links for you soon (or maybe a different style of music if you prefer, I know you like the heavy psych stuff from the late 60's/early 70's).


Sick!


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 Post subject: Re: 150 Greatest Rock Drummers
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 12:51 am 
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thejew wrote:
Ariel wrote:
thejew wrote:
Also, on the skill list, I'm all for Limb Independence and Dynamics to be added.


How about tom work and snare work?


Those are already covered with Rolls.


Disagree. Someone like Ginger Baker or for that matter Danny C. does crazy ass shit on the toms which is not rolls based. Nick Menza. It's a very specific, oft-overlooked skill set imo


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 Post subject: Re: 150 Greatest Rock Drummers
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 12:53 am 
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ihaterollingstonemagazine420 wrote:
ringo should go lower. copeland should be in top 10 he is incredibly skilled. baker fits better at #2


Baker's sick as fuck and #2 isn't an unreasonable opinion but he just doesn't quite cut that mustard by the criteria. Copeland's close to top 10 haha, close enough

Ringo's a drum genius and absolutely deserves his spot, check out "A Day in the Life", "Rain", "She Said She Said", "Come Together", "You Won't See Me", "Ticket to Ride"


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