skill is gavin by a very good amount and creativity is definitely gavin. What don't you find creative about his playing? I'm not getting this....rhythmically he approaches songs in ways no other drummer would possibly think of

I've heard very little of Gavin's material, but what I've heard was enough to blow me away.

Monster creativity for sure.

I would give Portnoy creativity over Gavin without too much hesitation. Portnoy has a very distinctive style, even if it's limited and he tends to repeat himself and hasn't really grown at all in his style in like 10-15 years. Gavin's a really cool drummer in terms of his approach but again, that fits more within innovation and originality than creativity imo.

Tier 1 creative drummers (rock of course):

Bruford, Carey, Beauford, Moon, Lombardo

Tier 2:

Bonham goes either here or Tier 1; maybe (probably) Portnoy; MAYBE Collins; Starr either goes here or Tier 1, same with Alexander; probably McBrain; Baker goes either here or Tier 1 probably; Palmer probably goes here; etc.

Tier 3:

Peak Ulrich PROBABLY goes here; Benante probably goes here; Jimmy DeGrasso maybe?; Brad Wilk PROBABLY goes here; Charlie Watts may well go here; I'd say Paice probably is a really strong Tier 3 guy (i.e. about as good as Tier 3 gets without crossing over into Tier 2); Collins might go here; peak Gene Hoglan might well be here; Vinnie Paul; etc.

Now my tiers with drummers aren't as solid as with bassists (since I know bassists better), but you get the point. I think with any instrument there are 'tiers' like this. Tiers 1 and 2, taken together, are the people that you'd indisputably call musical geniuses on their instruments. Tier 3 is definitively not genius, but very very good. (Think John Paul Jones on bass.)

I regard Gavin as a really strong tier 3 guy in terms of CREATIVITY. I do not think he is in the same universe as Bruford, Carey or Moon. I also do not think he is really in the same space as Bonham or even Peart, or Alexander, or Starr (who, like Alexander, might actually be tier 1). I don't think he's in the same space as McBrain either. Take away innovation and the fact that he has a new approach and listen to his actual drum lines themselves. Gavin doesn't cut it on the level of a Portnoy IMO. For as much as I whine about Portnoy being overrated to hell, his work in the mid 90s was exceptionally creative, like all-time great level creative maybe. Erotomania and the whole Awake album. A Change of Seasons. Oh, and throw in some later stuff like Stream of Consciousness and Dance of Eternity for good measure. These are all-time-great level drum performances in the pantheon of rock I'd say. What's a Gavin performance you'd say that about?

You realize you just blatantly and somewhat hilariously contradicted yourself here.

I consider Gavin high tier 2, especially against the names you have in tier 2. I wouldn't even put ulrich in tier 3. Just IMO.

It is a funny line but I don't think it actually has a contradiction. Think Eric Clapton or Jimmy Page.



Tier 2 examples (more): Peart, Baker, Palmer. I think those guys are very emblematic of tier 2. Starr is either tier 1 or tier 2. McBrain is definitely tier 2, very distinctive style.

I'm inclined to say that Collins is an example of a very strong tier 3 guy. Benante is definitely tier 3 at his best. Gar Samuelson is either tier 2 or 3 (probably tier 3), he's very good. Paice is IMO a strong tier 3 guy. Peak Gene Hoglan is probably tier 3, probably. Vinnie Paul is tier 3. Jimmy DeGrasso is probably tier 3. Brad Wilk is probably tier 3, very strong. Nick Mason is either 2 or 3 I'd say likely. Bill Ward teeters between 2 and 3.

I hope this makes sense.

In my book Gavin is a strong tier 3 guy like Paice (and I'd say he's actually way less creative than Paice if you put them head to head). I consider Portnoy a great example of what tier 2 is.

I know that post is kind of redundant, but what do you think CRJ?

Portnoy vs Gavin (my opinion):
Influence: Portnoy
Innovation: Gavin (but Portnoy's not bad here at all)
Creativity: Portnoy
Versatility: Gavin (Portnoy's still pretty good here all things considered)
Skill: Tie?
Originality: Gavin pretty easily

Influence being the big criterion, Portnoy wins imo.

It's a minor issue, but no way is Starr more creative than Peart.

Skill is Gavin's by a darn good amount. When moving around most skilled list, we planned Portnoy in low 30's, Gavin high 20's. More than 10 space difference so I'd say Gavin wins skill.

No way Peart is more creative than Starr you mean. He doesn't have a single performance on the level of A Day in the Life, Strawberry Fields Forever, maybe even She Said She Said



I seem to recall you mentioning some time back you considered Portnoy 'god tier' along with Bruford and Bozzio (I think there was one more guy too) in rock and everyone else was below that. Something about Mike's ungodly, unbelievable precision.

I believe you that Gavin is better, but curious how that fits in. Also, mind doing a skill criteria breakdown? This is interesting hehe

Oh and Gavin > Portnoy on all criteria that interest me atm. Popularity, influence and impact may be more in favour of Portnoy. But creativity, originality, tech ability and what ever else is definitely Gavin's.

I don't ever recall saying Portnoy was god tier in creativity, if I did, then that was a major slip up on my part because creativity wise I think he's solid tier 2 by your list MAX. I don't think I said that, but if I did for whatever reason, it's wrong because I've never thought that way.

Skill breakdown:


Technical Ability (Speed, Rolls, Footwork, Cymbalwork, Control, Odd-Time Sigs, Polyrhythms, Precision)
Uniqueness
Versatility (Genre Blending, Command Over Multiple Styles, Rudimentary Knowledge)

Speed: Portnoy maybe
Rolls: Harrison, just as fast, much cleaner, much more fluid
Footwork: Harrison, up there with the best, phenomenal footwork
Cymbalwork: Harrison, always creative, always tasteful, fantastic hi hat use and other cymbal usage
Control: Harrison not even a question
Odd-Time Sigs: Harrison
Polyrhythms: Oh my god Harrison
Precision: Harrison definitely

Genre Blending: Harrison
Command over Multiple Styles: Harrison, he's damn good at jazz
Rudimentary Knowledge: Harrison

Portnoy literally wins only one category. Anyone else care to mention where else Portnoy could possibly win? As far as I know, Harrison is better at everything Portnoy can do except maybe overall speed. Even that is not a landslide in portnoy's favor.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bedjJzQu6Lk

Gavin pretty much explains why Ringo is among the greatest and BEST drummers that has ever lived. Mainly, he is extremely subtle and does exactly what Harrison says a real drummer should do at every turn.

Also more Harrison just KILLING a jazz piece: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWI0l4I ... ure=relmfu

I don't know if Harrison is up there with all the best at footwork as you say. I really like his use of it, he uses it to complement beats rather than use it as the basis of beats if you get my drift. He uses it tastefully rather than generically and annoyingly.

However, he doesn't even consider himself a specialist double bass player, he has said that in interview, unlike someone like Derek Roddy.

exactly. I remember that, Derrek Roddy being the exception he mentioned. But Harrison is just super humble. Roddy has better footwork, but Gavins is practically flawless. He uses it tastefully, but he can go extremely fast very fluidly, and he can do rudiments with it that no others can as well as him. His double strokes on the bass pedal are ridiculous.