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 Post subject: Re: 150 Greatest Rock Drummers
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 1:54 am 
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Purdie and Palmer are similar in the way they sit as drummers on this list, but Purdie is pretty much Palmer but just better in every aspect of the criteria that Palmer has, for similar reasons. They've played with tons of artists, are very versatile, creative, original, influential, and innovative. Purdie just does better in all those categories though.

I agree with that Appice breakdown btw, which brings us to him vs. Lombardo. If he loses he stays at 15, but could Palmer beat Lombardo? Maybe. I'll ask the Lombardo lovers what they think.

I see it like this:

Influence: Lombardo
Innovation: Palmer
Originality: Palmer
Creativity: Tie (don't know enough to say for sure, but Lombardo is still extremely creative, so is Palmer)
Skill: Probably Lombardo
Versatility: Palmer

So 4 to 4 with influence as the tie breaker gives it to Lombardo. Thoughts?


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 Post subject: Re: 150 Greatest Rock Drummers
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 2:21 am 
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I agree with that 100%.


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 Post subject: Re: 150 Greatest Rock Drummers
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 2:27 am 
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k so for 10-20 we have:

11. Purdie
12. Aldridge
13. Carey
14. Lombardo
15. Palmer
16. Appice
17. Copeland
18. Porcaro
19. Benjamin
20. Ward

Benjamin vs. Porcaro for neg:

Influence: Porcaro, I don't think you guys realize how big this man is to drums
Innovation: Porcaro, innovated lots of grooves, toured with drum clinics, new equipment, etc. Not sure how much Ben innovated
Originality: Benjamin most likely.
Creativity: Tie, both very creative
Skill: Porcaro
Stylistic Versatility: Tie, Porcaro did LOTS, so did Benjamin. If tie breaker, it would go to Porcaro but I'll tie it for now.

So yeah as you can see Porcaro's win. And this breakdown seems fair, after influence, I don't see what Benjamin really innovated, leaving Porcaro the victor, Ben is definitely more original, both are so creative can't go either way (maybe Ben but still wouldn't let him win), skill is obvious and stylistic as I said should make sense.

So yeah Porcaro at 18. So top 20 good so far?


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 Post subject: Re: 150 Greatest Rock Drummers
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 2:31 am 
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the next 5 don't seem hard either. Honestly I'm seeing Portnoy drop a stupid amount, mainly because he really only has skill and a good amount of influence, but down to shrieve, I think we have drummers who are definitely more original, innovative, creative, and versatile than him. Probably more influential as well. Take Garibaldi, who wins everything but skill, which is not a large victory anyways. So Portnoy is at least down to 25. Dunsbar beats him in everything except maybe influence. So now we're at Shrieve. Even if we give Portnoy influence and skill, Shrieve is still more original, innovative, versatile, and creative than Portnoy. Possibly more influential. So now we're at Cozy Powell. What does everyone think we should do with Portnoy? He is a fantastic drummer at what he does, and in rock probably one of the biggest out there right now, yet the criteria clearly is not in his favor.


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 Post subject: Re: 150 Greatest Rock Drummers
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 2:32 am 
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I think we're probably underrating Benjamin a little, he had a really unique sound, but otherwise I have no problems with that at all.

Also agree on Shrieve > Portnoy. The only area where Port really excels is in skill. I don't even see him as being THAT influential, really.


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 Post subject: Re: 150 Greatest Rock Drummers
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 2:39 am 
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Negative Creep wrote:
I think we're probably underrating Benjamin a little, he had a really unique sound, but otherwise I have no problems with that at all.

Also agree on Shrieve > Portnoy. The only area where Port really excels is in skill. I don't even see him as being THAT influential, really.


I agree with that (on Portnoy). Ben did have a really unique sound, hence the originality. I don't see what else that wins him in my breakdown though. Benjamin is amazing, and the sad thing is he's another guy that most would love to see move up, because he really is a fantastic drummer, but the criteria favors his placement around that area. If it's in regards to Porcaro, then maybe all of you are just underrating him XD. But no I think it's a general placement thing, as in there's an amazing guy and you see him around 20 and you're like 'really, he should be higher'. I agree, he should considering his drumming and importance, but the criteria is not in his favor for moving above Porcaro, or any higher in general. That said, Benny won't move lower either. He excels in originality, creativity, and influence (though for influence a degree lesser than some above him, Porcaro I would bet my life on is more influential). He also does really well in versatility, better than many above him, but he does worse in other categories than those above him. He's one of those guys like in a fighting game has so many good things going for him that he has fantastic matchups across the board, but has some weak areas that way him down against the higher competition to keep him from being top or high tier, but he's at the bottom of upper and will never drop, and may be all around better than some others above him.

That's the best I can describe it really, but I don't see him moving up with this criteria. You can argue it though, give me a breakdown and tell me why my ears are always open


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 Post subject: Re: 150 Greatest Rock Drummers
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 3:23 am 
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Yeah I trust your judgement on the Porcaro issue. I really don't know much about him at all, but what I've heard really underwhelmed me. And I never was the hugest Toto fan besides that...

So I think the top 20 is pretty much good now. Wait for more opinions? I dunno.

Also, if you get a chance you should check out my links on the Most Skilled Drummers thread. :cheers:


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 Post subject: Re: 150 Greatest Rock Drummers
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 10:59 pm 
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Toto fucking sucks. Just saying that for the record.

Portnoy...really the area (aside from skill and influence) he excels in is fame/iconic status/prominence. If that were a criterion, and one weighted very very heavily like in Rolling Stone magazine music lists, he'd be fighting Porcaro, Copeland and quite possibly Hal Blaine in terms of where he ends up on this list.

But dude, while I personally count that whole thing under intangibles in the bassists list, I don't count it very heavily, it's very dangerous and makes horribly invalid lists if you count it too heavily. Bassfreak used to say 'if you don't like x player being 'only number 30!' or whatever, take a look at the people in front of him. You can't just look at a number and say 'oh that's not a nice number, that guy obviously should be top 20!' without seeing who's ahead of him. That's not a valid way of thinking, and #30 on a list like this is VERY VERY impressive.' That's kind of how I feel. So Portnoy's in the mid/late 20s. So what? His weaknesses are huge enough you could drive a truck through them. He's incredibly one dimensional, never really grew as an artist, helped popularize a lot of the worst trends in drumming (and especially 'prog' drumming) today, and most of his fame comes from being in a really prominent band and being absolutely brilliant (e.g. Gene Simmons) in marketing himself and his own image/reputation as this brilliant drummer. He's as good at marketing himself as anyone ever has been in rock in my opinion. It's all smoke and mirrors with Mike. People who are novices at their instrument and don't understand musicianship very well will swear up and down he's this untouchable musical genius and you'll show them clips of Bruford, Peart, Palmer, Collins, Giles all of whom are nearly as creative, as creative, or more creative (in some cases much more creative), and are far, far more musical/they have high 'musicality'. All of those guys are drummer-as-artist far, far more than Portnoy. They're more musically ambitious, with more finesse and subtlety (except maybe Peart and Palmer, who don't have as much finesse and subtlety as the others I listed imo).

As I've said before I do consider Mike top 20 in creativity in rock drumming. I'll be honest he is a drumming genius, if one of the lower ranking drumming geniuses in terms of genius (lol). But DT fanboys insist he's the defining great rock drummer ever which is hilarious/laughable/sad and shows a lack of a trained ear/an appreciation for subtlety, musicianship, versatility, refinement, distinctiveness in playing, etc. He's left in the dust by a Bruford, Moon, Giles, Starr (I can't believe I once had to argue vigorously to get Ringo raised above Mike on this list), Beauford, Lombardo, Carey, etc. in pure creativity and that's not even counting things like musicality, versatility, artistry etc. that I just mentioned.

So yeah, top 30 is hardly insulting and it's where he has to go unless we (er, CRJ) adopt fame/prominence/iconic status as a criterion for this list. Being behind guys like Garibaldi and Shrieve who are bedrocks in the invention of rock drumming is hardly an insult.


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 Post subject: Re: 150 Greatest Rock Drummers
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 11:18 pm 
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Lombardo performances in Slayer, please take a listen CRJ:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRV1Zgjmiks
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axc6VSaq ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95FSzuTB ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvpaK8aDJOY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvpaK8aDJOY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Nn3Uibn3TM

None of these are fast songs except for Temptation and Silent Scream. Lombardo isn't this one dimensional speedy double bass guy, he's an extraordinarily creative, dynamic, special drummer with untouchable groove compared to other metal drummers (and most other drummers period), a completely unique style and a ton of musicality.

I repeat, versatility...instrumental hip hop, thrash, avant garde heavy (Fantomas), whatever Grip Inc is, improv-to-fucking-Vivaldi. Apocalyptica.

Originality? Compare the playing in these songs I've linked to what Ulrich was doing at the same time. Lombardo was the first drummer to hit thrash who was a truly exceptional, one-of-a-kind musician. He set the standard.

Sherick wrote:
Again, not slow songs. Slower than their usual output, but that doesn't show much versatility in itself. I also find that last sentence hard to believe, seeing as the only people who would be able to notice anything other than his speed would be drummers. I stand by exactly what I said in the last post.


Hell no, only drummers with a trained ear would notice double bass speed in and of itself, and given how widespread crazy double bass is today, if that's what he were famous for he'd be a footnote in drumming history now 'that guy who made double bass modern'. No, thrash listeners in general go on about his style, his creativity and originality. He sounds like no one else. A non drummer would notice astounding drumming, that's why so many non musicians love Bonham and Peart so much and Moon.

Lombardo ties Aldridge in influence, beats him in skill, and beats him in versatility, also creativity. I stand by all that.

Lombardo ties Carey in creativity, ties him in versatility, doesn't lose in skill by THAT much, beats him in influence and in innovation.

Negative Creep wrote:
There really wasn't anyone before Aldridge who sounded like him per se, while you had tons of drummers doing the 'fast thrashy' style before Lombardo (Les Binks, Simon Phillips, Rat Skates, and of course Lars).


Then you're missing my whole point. My point is that Lombardo was NOT just a 'fast thrashy' drummer and didn't sound anything like Lars or Les Binks aside from the basic format of his playing, in which case you could say Moon sounded like Ringo (similar basic format) and you could easily say Portnoy sounds like Peart. Lombardo took that basic fast thrashy punk influenced style and added so much to it it became its own unique art form and take on speedy metal.

Put differently listen to Lars' exceptional but one dimensional playing on And Justice For All (album) and then listen to Lombardo on South of Heaven (album), released the same year. One of those two drummers is basic (if outstanding) fast/thrashy, the other is an exceptionally talented and unique musician. The difference is very stark.


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 Post subject: Re: 150 Greatest Rock Drummers
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 11:45 pm 
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Ariel wrote:
Lombardo performances in Slayer, please take a listen CRJ:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRV1Zgjmiks
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axc6VSaq ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95FSzuTB ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvpaK8aDJOY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvpaK8aDJOY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Nn3Uibn3TM

None of these are fast songs except for Temptation and Silent Scream. Lombardo isn't this one dimensional speedy double bass guy, he's an extraordinarily creative, dynamic, special drummer with untouchable groove compared to other metal drummers (and most other drummers period), a completely unique style and a ton of musicality.


I'm willing to grant some points to you, but I stand by what I said. None of those songs you posted are new to me, nor do they bring any new dimensions to the common perception of Lombardo's style. 4/4 beats or less with straight 16ths on the ride and fast tom rolls during measure breaks. 2/4 verses with hi-hats.
Lombardo's a creative player, but none of those performance show anything different. I even specifically referred to Seasons in the Abyss before, which is a performance I love.

Quote:
Sherick wrote:
Again, not slow songs. Slower than their usual output, but that doesn't show much versatility in itself. I also find that last sentence hard to believe, seeing as the only people who would be able to notice anything other than his speed would be drummers. I stand by exactly what I said in the last post.


Hell no, only drummers with a trained ear would notice double bass speed in and of itself, and given how widespread crazy double bass is today, if that's what he were famous for he'd be a footnote in drumming history now 'that guy who made double bass modern'. No, thrash listeners in general go on about his style, his creativity and originality. He sounds like no one else. A non drummer would notice astounding drumming, that's why so many non musicians love Bonham and Peart so much and Moon.


Everybody I've ever known who talks about Lombardo only talks about how fast he is and what he did with his feet. Very few of the people I know are serious drummers.

Quote:
Lombardo ties Carey in creativity, ties him in versatility, doesn't lose in skill by THAT much, beats him in influence and in innovation.


Yes in versatility, influence and innovation, huge NO on the other two.

Quote:
Negative Creep wrote:
There really wasn't anyone before Aldridge who sounded like him per se, while you had tons of drummers doing the 'fast thrashy' style before Lombardo (Les Binks, Simon Phillips, Rat Skates, and of course Lars).


Then you're missing my whole point. My point is that Lombardo was NOT just a 'fast thrashy' drummer and didn't sound anything like Lars or Les Binks aside from the basic format of his playing, in which case you could say Moon sounded like Ringo (similar basic format) and you could easily say Portnoy sounds like Peart. Lombardo took that basic fast thrashy punk influenced style and added so much to it it became its own unique art form and take on speedy metal.


Agreed

Quote:
Put differently listen to Lars' exceptional but one dimensional playing on And Justice For All (album) and then listen to Lombardo on South of Heaven (album), released the same year. One of those two drummers is basic (if outstanding) fast/thrashy, the other is an exceptionally talented and unique musician. The difference is very stark.


Lars's drumming on that album isn't any more repetative than Lombardo's is on his. Actually, Lars tries out a lot more unique patterns (AJFA, One, Harvester of Sorrow) and uses different time signatures more creatively than most of South of Heaven.


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 Post subject: Re: 150 Greatest Rock Drummers
PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 12:17 am 
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Ariel wrote:
doesn't lose in skill by THAT much, beats him in influence and in innovation.


Carey slaughters him in skill. I'm sorry, how close do you think they are? Carey kind slaughters most of the list in skill, there's really only like 8 or 9 drummers in rock that hold up to Carey's skill. I'm not going to count Pridgen and Lang as rock (Pridgen does everything sure but much more jazz and fusion than rock).

I mean other than looking at Bruford, Bozzio, Smith, Minneman, Harrison, Jarzombek, Palmer, Dunbar, and maybe Mangini. Then where do you go? Probably Beauford and Portnoy, and I'd consider them a good amount lower down.


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 Post subject: Re: 150 Greatest Rock Drummers
PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 12:25 am 
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Sherick wrote:
I'm willing to grant some points to you, but I stand by what I said. None of those songs you posted are new to me, nor do they bring any new dimensions to the common perception of Lombardo's style. 4/4 beats or less with straight 16ths on the ride and fast tom rolls during measure breaks. 2/4 verses with hi-hats.
Lombardo's a creative player, but none of those performance show anything different. I even specifically referred to Seasons in the Abyss before, which is a performance I love.


So far this^

Look Ariel, I'm trying to take in all this stuff, and pretty much everything you say is true (about Lombardo minus comparisons). And I definitely understand. I also see him as way more than 'that bass pedal guy', and have now for a while. Seasons of the Abyss was great, but listening to all his other stuff around grip inc, fantomas, and slayer, here's what I'll say. The guy is a musical genius on drums, far more than I gave him credit for. His stuff in Slayer, though more diverse than pretty much all the other thrash metal bands, still remains in a similar style. His playing with Grip Inc and Fantomas is very versatile and very creative. HOWEVER, this is Carey we're going up against here. Maybe you haven't listened to enough Tool, maybe you have, but I haven't seen a single reason to give him creativity over Carey. At best they tie in stylistic versatility. This isn't about whether Lombardo's done hip-hop or jazz styles, it's how different and varied his drum lines are. So he plays a hip-hop and jazzy style drumline, so he has two new drum line types added to his versatility. Still doesn't change the fact that Carey has no two similar drum lines as far as I can tell. Ticks and Leeches is just as different from Prison Sex and Aenima is from Reflection. And Carey has also done some completely unique drumlines with Volto! To me Carey's stuff never sounds repetitive, and I can't say that to that degree with Lombardo.

I'm still listening up but you're going to have to explain WHY he's more creative/versatile than Carey. You are just talking about Lombardo, but not really mentioning much about Carey, so I can't compare. You can raise one drummer up a mountain and have us believe it, but if in our heads another drummer is already on a higher mountain, your guy probably won't beat him unless you explain why they are at the same peak or ours should be lower.


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 Post subject: Re: 150 Greatest Rock Drummers
PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 8:35 am 
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Yeah Carey is definitely more creative than Lombardo. The thing about Carey is that his whole STYLE is creative, not just a few techniques here and there.

Influence - Lombardo
Creativity - Carey
Innovation - Lombardo
Originality - Carey
Versatility - Tied
Skill - Carey

Actually, by this they tie. And influence is the tie-breaker, so Lombardo actually wins. Unless you guys wanna give versatility to Carey, which I could see, but it's dangerously close either way.

OH.
And Ariel, those Slayer songs you posted were fucking epic. Did I say Hell Awaits was their best album? Fuck that, these two are phenomenal (South Of Heaven and Seasons)!
I agree Lombardo has excellent groove when he wants to. Check this out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nG9IOZqG ... re=related


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 Post subject: Re: 150 Greatest Rock Drummers
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 8:41 am 
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CRJ/Ariel,
I think this is one reason why Bruford should really be #1 here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1k7-r7nd5Lc

If you watch the whole thing through, you clearly see what an ARTIST of percussion is really supposed to be.
Bruford just buries every rock drummer in creativity, imo.


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 Post subject: Re: 150 Greatest Rock Drummers
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 11:20 pm 
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Sherick wrote:
I'm willing to grant some points to you, but I stand by what I said. None of those songs you posted are new to me, nor do they bring any new dimensions to the common perception of Lombardo's style. 4/4 beats or less with straight 16ths on the ride and fast tom rolls during measure breaks. 2/4 verses with hi-hats.
Lombardo's a creative player, but none of those performance show anything different. I even specifically referred to Seasons in the Abyss before, which is a performance I love.


Lot of fills in the songs I linked that aren't fast tom rolls during measure breaks, Lombardo's fills are far less predictable than Lars's which are almost unanimously snare fills with fairly basic patterns (and I consider Lars to have a special touch and feel for rhythm, his fills are fantastic and creative, but far less varied and imaginative than Dave's).

Either way I think it's dangerous to assess musicians this way. I could easily say Entwistle's bass playing was unanimously minor pentatonic based. It was. But he did so much with that scale, so creatively, he sounds like no one else. Like what Keith Moon did with apparently (according to CRJ) simple drum beats kinda. Entwistle may have stuck almost unanimously to one scale type but MAN did he use it creatively and inventively, no one else has come close in terms of using that scale. The *way* he used it, he thought in the moment in a structured way in terms of riffs and ideas, the way the ideas flowed into each other, how tasty and memorable his licks were, etc. Would be easy to dismiss John as one dimensional but that would miss the point, not to call him top 5 or top 10 rock bass creativity ever would simply be wrong. Similarly Dave Lombardo in Slayer in 1988-1990 sounds like no other drummer, and certainly no other thrash or metal drummer I've ever heard, he's entirely distinct.


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