All I know about Earl is this: One of the most recorded drummers of all time, practically invented rock drumming and is the main individual credited with changing from swing to straight 8ths.

However that gives him among highest innovation points, I won't say everyone doing straight 8ths after him gives him super influence, since it's just something done now across tons of genres (including Latin, which I believe was doing straight 8ths before Earl anyways), and most drummers who play that way just play it cause' that's how it's played and probably don't even know of Earl. I'd consider 8ths an innovation, and gives a bit of indirect influence. Influence, as far as I see it, includes inspiration and style, among other things that are hard to describe. Why does innovation not count in this matter? Neil Peart innovates the roto toms, you buy them because they sound cool, that doesn't mean you are influenced by Peart. Similarly to straight 8ths, lets say someone innovates a new bass drum technique. A few years later your drum teacher shows you it as some new drum vocab to add to your playing, you fill with it occasionally and know little about it other than it sounds cool and your teacher taught it to you. That doesn't mean anything about your playing was influenced by whoever came up with that bass pattern. Stylistically is different, if someone comes up with the whole style of metal drumming, and you base your style around metal drumming, then your drum style is influenced, indirectly, by that original drummer, because his playing greatly affected your style of playing.


The point of this is before people start telling me straight 8ths he should have tons of indirect influence, I'm trying to define how I view the word influence. Just because you play straight 8ths (like every drummer now a days), doesn't mean Earl Palmer influenced you or your playing at all, even indirectly, because it has little to do with how you play and what makes you play, or your style of drummer and techniques. Straight 8th notes have been in music forever since classical times, and is just a basic musical concept. What earl did is just move popular drumming away from the origins of swing jazz style, which gives him mega innovation and may have influenced plenty with his own style, but not just due to straight 8ths, someone would have done it eventually and people just play it as a basic musical concept, not anything relating to what some drummer did.

I however know little about Palmer's style, or direct influence, which is why I can't say much. I also don't know much else about his creativity either. However the point of this is the reason he's not already higher for 'inventing' rock drumming (more accurately innovating straight 8ths in popular music) is that does not give him visible or measurable influence points on it's own, it requires other information that I don't have. That innovation and originality alone however, nets him at least top 20, and either where he currently is or possibly higher.

Yeah I agree with all of that. Influence is tough to pin down, but I think you nailed it with that assessment.

I guess we'll both have to look into Palmer a little more...

On another note, I think Nicko McBrain could probably bump up a little from his current spot.
Guy is stellar in everything but innovation and originality, imo.

Seasons is a mid paced thrash song. It's midtempo, in no way a fast song. Silent Scream is fast but I don't think it's as fast as Angel of Death or Raining Blood, both of which came earlier. Seasons in the Abyss, Live Undead, Behind the Crooked Cross, Expendable Youth, all slow/midtempo songs he was exceptional in and attracts a lot of attention for his performances there. Same with South of Heaven, another slow song. He's not just double bass, and while the drum community might care a lot about him pushing double bass forward, among your average metal listeners he's noticed for the astonishing creativity and originality of his general style, not his double bass speed which is something only drummers would notice.

Lombardo's versatility is exceptional. Slayer, Grip Inc., Fantomas, all very different and creative bands. Also, from wiki: "In 1999, on his constant quest to expand his horizon as a drummer, Lombardo collaborated with Italian classical musician Lorenzo Arruga to record Vivaldi - The Meeting. The seven-track album had drum improvisations on Vivaldi's work including two pieces from The Four Seasons composition." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Lombardo) Then there's the hip hop instrumental album Drums of Death with DJ Spooky: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drums_of_Death_(album). From the Lombardo wiki: "In 2005, Lombardo recorded Drums of Death with DJ Spooky. Spooky played some records, with Lombardo playing along and interpreting his own rhythms. Spooky recorded the session and took the tapes to his New York recording studio, downloaded it onto his computer, and mixed the beats and drums incorporating scratching and other DJ techniques.[3]" Then there's his playing with Apocalyptica.

As far as groove goes Sherick I beg to differ. Half of why Lombardo is so unique in thrash metal is his absolutely astounding groove, universes beyond his contemporaries like Ulrich (who I like a lot by the way). From wiki: "As well as considering him an influence, Arch Enemy drummer Daniel Erlandsson feels Lombardo is 'really tasteful in his playing, and doesn't overplay. He's gifted with a groove that not many speed metal, or metal drummers generally, have.'[27]" (Lombardo wiki.) Honestly I must stress again that your average non drummer realizes Lombardo is 'special' because of his fills/accompaniment being totally unique, and his groove, the influence of latin rhythms/style on his sound. He doesn't sound like anyone else in thrash, or even in fast metal period.

I urge CRJ to at least listen to some of the songs I've mentioned here before deciding Dave's place is set. As I see it he takes Aldridge in creativity, originality, skill, and stylistic versatility (which he had a lot of by the way even just within Slayer's 1988-1990 period, not even to mention the other settings he's played in), and ties in influence. He also I think takes Carey in originality, ties him in creativity, and rivals him in stylistic versatility, not to mention the obvious wins in influence and innovation. I think he's being sold short in this discussion of the teen spots we're having and I'm trying to rectify that

Again, not slow songs. Slower than their usual output, but that doesn't show much versatility in itself. I also find that last sentence hard to believe, seeing as the only people who would be able to notice anything other than his speed would be drummers. I stand by exactly what I said in the last post.

I've a few of those songs Ariel, and am open to discussion on some of the points, however there is no way he takes Originality from either Aldridge or Carey. I know enough about Lombardo's style to say no matter how original he was or ahead of his time, he was no where near as original as Aldridge, or nowhere near as ahead of his time. When I looked into Aldridge I can't believe he was doing that stuff in 73. I also can't find any connections on how Aldridge appeared out of 60's double bass playing and erupted into his style, it seems wholly original. I can easily give enough correlation between Lombardo's double bass playing to Aldridge, and regardless of how original it is, it's undeniable that Lombardo built heavily off older double bass styles (which originated with Aldridge, who Lombardo I've read claims to be among his biggest influences) and made it into something of his own. However their is a correlation, and I am yet to find any noticeable trace to say that Aldridge is less original. Of course Aldridge built upon stuff that was there before, but his style at the time and even in retrospect is far more original than Lombardo's. Nothing more to say.

For Carey, the fact that he started drumming so late in the game and still came up with a style so unique and unorthodox that drummer's worldwide were wizzing around to listen to a metal band and call the drumming among the most tasteful and innovative in decades says a lot. Carey's style is also far more removed from Bruford's and Bozzio's (other than Poly's, which every good drummer now adapts and Bruford says he got from watching Max Roach growing up, their styles are vastly different. And Bozzio is in such a stratosphere of his own style that nothing can be called remotely similar. No one can rip off bozzio's style, it's just too different. No one's come close. Influence does not imply style development) than Lombardo's seems from previous drum styles.

Yeah there's no way Lombardo takes originality from Aldridge or Carey. Aldridge must have seemed like a monster from another planet to most people in the early 70's.
He was like Bonham + Baker on speed. Amazing shit.
There really wasn't anyone before Aldridge who sounded like him per se, while you had tons of drummers doing the 'fast thrashy' style before Lombardo (Les Binks, Simon Phillips, Rat Skates, and of course Lars).

Lombardo clearly wipes the floor with them in influence (though Aldridge is close), but they just have too much of an advantage in the other areas, imo.

There aren't many who can touch Carey in the creativity department.

still think Reflection is the most tasteful sounding drum beat ever. minimalistic drumming done to its absolute best.

SUCH a good song. The whole albums kinda a masterpiece.

By....who?
Never heard of it....

Carey man....

Hey I didn't know...it's not like "Reflection" wouldn't be a very common title for a song, it's hardly unthinkable...

Also, for whatever I may have said about Lombardo, I'm listening to Show No Mercy and man....his double bass really is just SCARY...even as early as that first album.

Looking more into Earl Palmer. His originality, innovation, influence, and versatility are all absolutely immense.

This is pretty awesome, imo, especially the last two parts:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7ha1u9i ... re=related

Neg, that's absolutely sick stuff. So where do you think we should put him? Above Appice?

Probably. While Appice is more skilled, I think Palmer probably wins ever other aspect of the criteria. Especially versatility, this is a guy that has played for Fats Domino, B.B. King, Herb Alpert, Little Richard, Tim Buckley, and so many more.

Influence - Tied (Palmer for indirect, Appice for direct)
Originality - Tied
Innovation - Palmer
Creativity - Tied
Skill - Appice
Versatility - Palmer

That's how I see it. I don't know enough about Purdie to make a comparison there.