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 Post subject: Top 100 drummers of all genres
PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 12:42 am 
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This list may actually be more reasonable than other all genre lists, due to the nature of drumming and drum techniques. I'd like to get this started if possible, if people think this list is somewhat doable. It will be mostly jazz drummers, no doubt, as jazz drumming did come long before rock styles and established most of the techniques used for set. Also, Latin drumming is equal to jazz in my eyes of importance and influence in the world of percussion, they have always gone together, yet I don't know many true latin drum heroes outside of jazz drummers who used Latin beats. I would like extended help on this list. Also, this is just for set, so all genres doesn't not encompass concert snare or drum corps, or any innovators of those styles and techniques used for them (most transferred over to set anyways, but regardless, those traditions are to ancient to trace properly for this list anyways).

I suggest we start by organizing the drummers into positions of importance to the drumming world within their own genre. Just like how the greatest guitarists list have guitarists in completely different order than their jazz/blues/rock list counterparts, this will most likely be similar. We should start with organizing top 10 rock and jazz drummers based on this criteria:

Influence and importance in the drum world, cross genre
Innovation to set drumming styles and techniques
Originality in style and approach to the set
Creativity with their style and uses of the set/equipment
Technical Ability

Influence and Innovation being most important, followed by originality, creativity, and technical ability worth the same.

Individual genre list placements for this list:

Jazz (courtesy of beaverteeth)

1. Gene Krupa/Buddy Rich
2. Buddy Rich/Gene Krupa
3. Max Roach
4. Elvin Jones
5. Chick Webb
6. Tony Williams
7. Warren "Baby" Dodds
8. Joe Morello
9. Art Blakey
10. Louis Bellson

Fusion (courtesy of beaverteeth):

1. Tony Williams
2. Billy Cobham
3. Bill Bruford (if this wasn't an all-genre list, he'd be much lower)
4. Steve Gadd
5. Vinnie Colaiuta
6. Jack DeJohnette
7. Dave Weckl
8. Steve Gadd
9. Lenny White
10. Dennis Chambers

Rock:

1. Bohnam
2. Baker
3. Bruford
4. Peart
5. Ringo Starr
6. Hal Blaine
7. Keith Moon
8. Carl Palmer
9. Bernard Purdie
10. Bozzio?/Earl Palmer
11. Earl Palmer/Bozzio?
12. Dave Lombardo
13. Stewart Copeland
14. Jeff Porcaro
15. David Garibaldi
16. Danny Carrey
17. Bill Ward
18. Carman Appice
19. Ian Paice
20. Benny Benjamin

We will start consolidating soon.


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 Post subject: Re: Top 100 drummers of all genres
PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 3:38 pm 
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Ooh! Me likey. Commence.


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 Post subject: Re: Top 100 drummers of all genres
PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 3:36 pm 
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Currently doing research, will add semi-lists in a bit.


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 Post subject: Re: Top 100 drummers of all genres
PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 3:44 pm 
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How do you feel about the jazz/rock/fusion lists that are up already/ basing our first drafts heavily on their contents?


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 Post subject: Re: Top 100 drummers of all genres
PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 10:36 pm 
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I'm using those as a definite reference for sure, but there will be some definite changes. Like Krupa being either 2 or 3 for practically inventing the modern drum kit. I think it would be good to divide them by genre first and then find where the lists segue, they will definitely be different though. For example, I'd have Bohnam higher than Peart for a cross genre overall greatest drummer list easily (hell I would in our rock list to but that ain't happening based on criteria). Moon would probably be lower than Baker too due to innovation and fusing genres etc, but Moon could be ahead. It definitely needs to be looked at. For example, Elvin Jones is astounding but I'm not sure he'd be the 3rd greatest jazz drummer on a list of greatest drummers of all time. I don't want this to be most influential, I want this to be more like the all genre guitarist list we have, which focuses heavily on innovation and influence, but is still not a most influential list by any means. You guys can start brainstorming, I will too, but I feel I should get to know more about most of these drummers impact on the drumming world and not just within certain circles or within respective genres.


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 Post subject: Re: Top 100 drummers of all genres
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 12:47 am 
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Brainstorm q. #1: Why wouldn't Krupa be #1?


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 Post subject: Re: Top 100 drummers of all genres
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 1:06 pm 
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Because Buddy Rich is number 1. Like Elvis to the Beatles, Krupa was the creator so to speak, and Rich expanded upon everything in the field, popularized it like never before, and made singular drum solos watchable by masses of people on TV and brought drumming to new heights in the eyes of the populace and the world. He is also arguably more influential, if not the most influential cross genre drummer, and had heaps of skill to boot. Krupa loses in skill, and is only second to Buddy in influence (mainly indirect), here's how I see it:

Influence: Buddy Rich
Innovation: Krupa (the peak of innovation, invented the kit as we know it)
Creativity: Tie (Both of their approaches to the kit exemplified the peak of creativity, with new styles uniquely their own and techniques that didn't come before and haven't been replicated since, except for Krupa on that last one)
Skill: Buddy Rich

Rich would take 1st, but undoubtedly Krupa would school everyone else with massive influence (lots of indirect, like Elvis in the vocalist discussion), peak of innovation, and very very high creativity. So far I'm thinking for top 3:

1. Buddy Rich
2. Gene Krupa
3. John Bohnam (his influence, style, and techniques far outreach just the rock genre, even though Elvin Jones was a huge influence on Bohnam's playing, I believe Bohnam is still the 3rd most influential drummer after these 2. Though I'd need to really look at some of the higher jazz drummers at this point to see if Bohnam really deserves third).

The one and two spots are locked for Krupa and Rich, if you think they need switching we can discuss it.


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 Post subject: Re: Top 100 drummers of all genres
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 4:42 pm 
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It was more a question than a complaint. I don't really have a problem with that order, given how you've explained it.

Question #2: Why Bonham above Baker? Baker was THE guy who brought jazz into rock, has wide cross-genre influence, is more skilled, and, if looked at in a certain way, I reckon could be argued to be more influential. (Allmusic calls him the greatest percussionist of the '60s) MASSIVE MASSIVE indirect influence I'd reckon due to being the first 'serious' rock drummer


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 Post subject: Re: Top 100 drummers of all genres
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 9:59 pm 
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Baker is NOT as influential as Bohnam in any shape or form, but he COULD be ahead of him, though I doubt it. Baker was gonna be my number 2 rock drummer on the list, no doubt, his innovation and creativity is also top notch, and his cross genre appeal and influence is very high. Bohnam's just too influential though, because literally every drummer after him has been influenced by him in some way or another in the rock field, and many in other genres as well. Baker has lots of direct influence, and tons of indirect, but I don't see it as close to Bohnam's, then again, Baker takes a lot as well. Here's how I see the order of rock drummers on the list so far:

1. Bohnam
2. Baker
3. Bruford
4. Peart
5. Ringo Starr
6. Hal Blaine
7. Keith Moon
8. Carl Palmer
9. Bernard Purdie
10. Bozzio?/Earl Palmer
11. Earl Palmer/Bozzio?
12. Dave Lombardo
13. Stewart Copeland
14. Danny Carrey
15. Carman Appice
16. Jeff Porcaro
17. David Garibaldi
18. Ian Paice
19. Bill Ward
20. Benny Benjamin


Also, Bohnam vs. Baker:

Influence: Bohman (maybe not a lot, but enough)
Innovation: Tie or Baker. Baker innovated a ton, no doubt, but Bohnams beats and bass pedal strokes were very innovative and brought him tons of influence.
Creativity: Tie. I could give Baker creativity, I know I said Tie or Baker, but I feel it's much closer to a tie, both were soooo creative with their playing.
Skill: Baker

It's either a marginal win for Bohnam or a huge win for Baker (taking all but influence). Need more input on this.

This is completely a brainstorm list, very spontaneous and most likely very flawed, of the order the top 20 rock drummers would most likely end up on this list. Of course this is going to be full of jazz drummers, probably way more than the rock ones, but intersperced, this is the order I see it. I think we should also make a jazz drummer list in a similar fashion, and then just find where to throw the rock drummer names on. We should make a top 20 list for each, and then start throwing names in, if we find that we have only 8 rock names on the list and 20 jazz filled out and all the jazz artists win by the criteria, we will continue getting new names to add as usual, but I think it's a good starting point to get a top 20 for both genres right now, since as you can see, the order will be different. Heck I don't even know if Paice should be on this list, he's great within rock for his skill and creativity, but against everyone else in jazz, and the other rock drummers who surpass him in influence and innovation, this will be hard. I'm just brainstorming here btw.


Last edited by Classic Rock Junkie on Thu Jan 05, 2012 2:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Top 100 drummers of all genres
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 10:36 pm 
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I am pretty much 100% certain that Bruford and Starr need to be #3 and #4 among the rock guys on this list...in either order. I honestly have a hard time seeing why Peart would touch either of them, especially on an all genre list. I don't even see why Peart would necessarily take Blaine, or even Keith Moon.

Should Purdie really be *that* high? And I reckon Benny Benjamin is a bit low on your list.

Should Mike Shrieve make your projected rock top 20 for this list?


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 Post subject: Re: Top 100 drummers of all genres
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 1:56 am 
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Classic Rock Junkie wrote:
Because Buddy Rich is number 1. Like Elvis to the Beatles, Krupa was the creator so to speak, and Rich expanded upon everything in the field, popularized it like never before, and made singular drum solos watchable by masses of people on TV and brought drumming to new heights in the eyes of the populace and the world. He is also arguably more influential, if not the most influential cross genre drummer, and had heaps of skill to boot. Krupa loses in skill, and is only second to Buddy in influence (mainly indirect), here's how I see it:

Influence: Buddy Rich
Innovation: Krupa (the peak of innovation, invented the kit as we know it)
Creativity: Tie (Both of their approaches to the kit exemplified the peak of creativity, with new styles uniquely their own and techniques that didn't come before and haven't been replicated since, except for Krupa on that last one)
Skill: Buddy Rich

Rich would take 1st, but undoubtedly Krupa would school everyone else with massive influence (lots of indirect, like Elvis in the vocalist discussion), peak of innovation, and very very high creativity. So far I'm thinking for top 3:

1. Buddy Rich
2. Gene Krupa
3. John Bohnam (his influence, style, and techniques far outreach just the rock genre, even though Elvin Jones was a huge influence on Bohnam's playing, I believe Bohnam is still the 3rd most influential drummer after these 2. Though I'd need to really look at some of the higher jazz drummers at this point to see if Bohnam really deserves third).

The one and two spots are locked for Krupa and Rich, if you think they need switching we can discuss it.



I'd have to disagree with your assessment of creativity. Krupa's actual grooving in the background is much more interesting than Rich's, and Rich's creativity was mostly limited to solos while making for a rather mediocre accompanist. Krupa was an outright master at both soloing and grooving and rarely ended up with the kind of kit masturbation that Rich is better known for.

Anyway, Louie Bellson should also probably be rather high due to his influence on the development of the modern drum set. He was the first to play double bass, in addition to his numerous other achievements. Joe Morello should also be rather high due to popularizing the use of odd meters on drum set and Billy Cobham due to being the first big drummer to successfully combine jazz and rock playing.

As for the question of Purdie's placement, he should be very, very high up. He's one of the most important R&B drummers of all time and essentially THE session man for it as a genre. The highest-ranking session man on the list should probably be he, Hal Blaine, Vinnie Colaiuta, or Steve Gadd, and I'd think Vinnie would take the cake as he's possibly the most versatile drummer in history.


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 Post subject: Re: Top 100 drummers of all genres
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 2:33 am 
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beaverteeth92 wrote:

I'd have to disagree with your assessment of creativity. Krupa's actual grooving in the background is much more interesting than Rich's, and Rich's creativity was mostly limited to solos while making for a rather mediocre accompanist. Krupa was an outright master at both soloing and grooving and rarely ended up with the kind of kit masturbation that Rich is better known for.

Anyway, Louie Bellson should also probably be rather high due to his influence on the development of the modern drum set. He was the first to play double bass, in addition to his numerous other achievements. Joe Morello should also be rather high due to popularizing the use of odd meters on drum set and Billy Cobham due to being the first big drummer to successfully combine jazz and rock playing.

As for the question of Purdie's placement, he should be very, very high up. He's one of the most important R&B drummers of all time and essentially THE session man for it as a genre. The highest-ranking session man on the list should probably be he, Hal Blaine, Vinnie Colaiuta, or Steve Gadd, and I'd think Vinnie would take the cake as he's possibly the most versatile drummer in history.


^ agree with all this except I still think Buddy should be #1 but if Krupa should well he should. He's definitely number 2 no doubt about it. Louie Bellson and Cobham will be quite high on the list. And I'm actually thinking of moving Purdie up a bit for the rock guys, as you said, he was THE sessions man, and his influence on funk and R&B is absurd.


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 Post subject: Re: Top 100 drummers of all genres
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 2:36 am 
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ariel wrote:
I am pretty much 100% certain that Bruford and Starr need to be #3 and #4 among the rock guys on this list...in either order. I honestly have a hard time seeing why Peart would touch either of them, especially on an all genre list. I don't even see why Peart would necessarily take Blaine, or even Keith Moon.

Should Purdie really be *that* high? And I reckon Benny Benjamin is a bit low on your list.

Should Mike Shrieve make your projected rock top 20 for this list?


I'd put Bruford at 3 any day, and I have Ringo projected at 5. Unfortunately, as much as I don't really like Peart's style, he is that big and arguably one of the biggest influences on drumming since Bohnam. He's also got lots of innovation too him, though I'd tie it with Bruford's innovation with electronic kits and polyrhythms. Peart has to be up there, maybe behind Ringo, but he really does have to be 4 or 5. He's done a lot for drumming, all sides worldwide.

Took out most of the what if's in my projected rock guys list. Anyone want to crack a jazz drummer list? I will do so probably later but if anyone else wants to start now go ahead. I kinda wish mrsam were here for this, even though he can be bias, he seems to know his jazz. Also, anyone think Purdie should go higher in the scheme of things? Opinion on Carl Palmer's placement (since I just kinda put him there for now)? And Benjamin or Garibaldi's placement (I may be heavily underrating Benjamin, he was huge in mowtown and the number session drummer there, but I'm not sure he was a real style innovator, though I'm sure he has plenty influence to his name, don't see it ahead of the others. Garibaldi is the pinnacle of funk and groove in rock drumming, hence his high placement, but if he should be moved around opinions....)


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 Post subject: Re: Top 100 drummers of all genres
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 4:29 pm 
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Purdie and Garibaldi are polar opposites, oddly enough. Purdie is easily the most influential funk drummer of all time and is probably the greatest groove creator in history. Garibaldi is the most skilled funk drummer of all time and and is incredible, despite not having nearly as much influence as Purdie and grooving completely differently. Purdie should be much higher though.

Also how do you guys feel about Vinnie Colaiuta being Top 5? And here's a list of other players that need high spots on here:

Jeff Porcaro
Dave Weckl
Steve Gadd
Chick Webb
Warren "Baby" Dodds
Max Roach
Hal Blaine
Carl Palmer
Jack DeJohnette
Tony Williams (VERY high)
Art Blakey
Lenny White
Bill Ward
Dave Lombardo


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 Post subject: Re: Top 100 drummers of all genres
PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 12:50 pm 
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Vinnie Colaiuta will be very, very high, top five is reasonable. Tony Williams to me was going to be in the top 5 jazz drummers we have in the list, a pioneer of style in fusion and tremendously influential across the board, with tons of skill and innovation. THE fusion drummer, he'll be really high. I agree with all of those names, we just need to start organizing them.


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