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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Bass Guitarists
PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 10:48 pm 
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Going to move Anthony Jackson to right ahead of JPJ for now. Seems like a better spot on a 'rock' list to me, if he stays on such a list at all.

SHEEHAN CRITERIA BREAKDOWNS:

Sheehan vs Geezer Butler:
Influence: Butler (by a fair amount)
Innovation: Butler (by a bit)
Creativity: Sheehan (Butler's good but it's not really close at all)
Tech skill: Sheehan lol (but Butler is still more than respectable)
Versatility: Sheehan?

This would SEEM to keep Sheehan ahead, but let's look at 'intangibles':
Sheehan: First 'bassist as lead guitarist' ever; potentially the most skilled bassist ever (among those in the running); legend; helped invent some new (albeit fairly minor) techniques such as bending the neck back to do pitch shift; one of only a few bassists regularly trusted to back guitar virtuosos (Vai, Satriani, etc.), which is an honor; invented a new 'school' of bass playing (though that 'school' was really an offshoot of previous approaches and hardly that revolutionary)

Butler: FIRST METAL BASSIST. Also, potentially the most influential metal bassist ever. Invented 'sludgy' bass style, MAJOR force in establishing the wah pedal among bass players, as well as distortion. Revolutionary also in helping establish 'bass through a guitar amp' tone. THE doom metal bassist. Very distinctive approach to playing which became one of the canonical approaches in the rock vocabulary, his fingerprints are all over bass playing from his point forward.

WINNER: Butler. Intangibles and significance to the history of the instrument just can't be overcome here. It's really not close.

Skipping Sheehan vs Osborn since I don't know Osborn well enough to do that one

Sheehan vs Prestia:
Influence: Prestia
Innovation: Prestia
Creativity: guessing Sheehan
Versatility: Sheehan by a bit?
Tech: Sheehan by a lot

Intangibles: Went over Sheehan already...

Prestia:
THE fingerstyle funk player, and therefore a player whose fingerprints are all over bass playing from his point forward. Flea for instance would not be conceivable without Prestia having come and blazed the trail earlier. Half of one of the most important and revolutionary bass/drum rhythm sections in rock history which totally changed the game. One of the top two or three most important funk bassists ever who helped invent the style (funk bass). A legend, which is all the more impressive given how limited his work was.

Prestia wins intangibles+significance to the history of the instrument. Close-ish call, but I say Prestia beats Sheehan overall.

Sheehan vs JPJ:
Influence: JPJ
Innovation: Sheehan
Creativity: Sheehan (though JPJ is very good here too)
Versatility: JPJ frankly
Tech skill: Sheehan but JPJ is still good

'Intangibles':

JPJ:
Part of freaking LED ZEPPELIN and one half of the most legendary rhythm section in rock's history. With John Bonham, brought 'grooving' as a rhythm section ideal to the white masses. As a bassist, brought the Motown/Stax sensibility/approach to white audiences. A total legend. Legendary improviser, both in the studio and live. 'The Lemon Song' considered a canonical rock bass performance (and much more than any of Sheehan's performances). Perhaps the most important figure in rock bass in popularizing the 8 string bass? Playing in 'Achilles Last Stand' a premonition of much later metal playing. Along with Entwistle and others, showed that fingerstyle and pickstyle can and should BOTH be in the bass player's arsenal and both have their own uses, neither is 'superior'. 'Led Zeppelin II' one of the greatest bass albums ever in rock.

Winner: JPJ overall due to intangibles/significance to the history of the instrument. (In criteria it was basically a tie)

...

So yeah, I'm gonna put Sheehan at 17 now, right behind JPJ. Seems like a good spot for him. I don't know how to assess Johnson OR Laboriel yet really so I need to park Billy there for now. He could in theory drop slightly more in the future.

Mind y'all, I LOVE Sheehan, he was just a bit high that's all.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Bass Guitarists
PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 10:49 pm 
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Sheehan is just incredible. His arsenal of differenst sounds he can get from his instrument is staggering.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Bass Guitarists
PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 10:56 pm 
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Yea I love him. Extremely creative


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Bass Guitarists
PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 11:15 pm 
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Oh btw Ssoyd...they didn't have any Fudge at my record store! Suck, I'll have to get it later, somewhere else. Got Rush's first album tho (word), and some other good stuff.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Bass Guitarists
PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 9:32 am 
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That interview does explain the mentality of a session player and why a guy who was instrumental in forming one of the greatest groups of musicians in rock history (Lukather, Jeff Porcaro, David Paich, and himself) decided to return to the studio after selling millions of records and hugely successful tours. Hungate, as an intregal part of Toto were honored to join such luminaries as The Funk Brothers, The Wrecking Crew, Chet Atkins, Charlie Daniels, Duane Eddy, Springsteen, etc in The Musicians Hall Of Fame in Nashville.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEHCJVFQ ... ata_player

The thing about Toto is that when fans went to see those guys perform, stage antics were definitely not what you were paying your money for, but rather the sheer excellence of the musicianship and the tightness of the ensemble which Hungate played a significant role...much like Steely Dan. Few gimmicks in their recordings and performances...just virtuosity to a man.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Bass Guitarists
PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 11:58 am 
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I just wanna say the combination of James Jamerson and Jackie Wilson is absolutey, colosally brilliant.
The greatest bass player in rock + one of the top 10 greatest rock vocalists ever = mind-blowing music.

I FUCKING LOVE MOTOWN.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Bass Guitarists
PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 12:05 pm 
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Ariel wrote:
Yea I love him. Extremely creative


Sheehan is creative in a technical sense but musically/harmonically not so much. He plays the same stuff over and over. That's why I got bored with listening to Talas back then. Most of what he plays today is the same as what he did 30 years ago.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Bass Guitarists
PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 12:13 pm 
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Ariel wrote:
So yeah, I'm gonna put Sheehan at 17 now, right behind JPJ. Seems like a good spot for him. I don't know how to assess Johnson OR Laboriel yet really so I need to park Billy there for now. He could in theory drop slightly more in the future.

Mind y'all, I LOVE Sheehan, he was just a bit high that's all.


Don't apologize!! Anywhere in the top 50 is an honor. You have him higher than I would but a large part of that is prejudice on my part as I simply don't like that style of bass playing and I don't like his sound.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Bass Guitarists
PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 12:25 pm 
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Less use of 'invented' and more use of 'popularized', methinks.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Bass Guitarists
PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 12:33 pm 
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Yngtchie Blacksteen wrote:
Less use of 'invented' and more use of 'popularized', methinks.


Good point because in music usually you never really know who did something first. Sheehan for example freely admits that virtually every technique he uses he "stole" (his words) from someone else. He was probably the first bassists to put so many different techniques together in a single package though.


Last edited by Ssoyd on Tue Mar 20, 2012 12:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Bass Guitarists
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 2:05 am 
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Just another one of Hungates "day at the office" movie soundtracks he did on a consistant basis, in addition to his live orchestra television work (Sonny & Cher, Tony Orlando Show, etc)...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g19p1uEz ... ata_player


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Bass Guitarists
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 11:09 am 
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Ssoyd wrote:
Good point because in music usually you never really know who did something first. Sheehan for example freely admits that virtually every technique he uses he "stole" (his words) from someone else. He was probably the first bassists to put so many different techniques together in a single package.

It also makes you sound like Turd. Example: "David Gilmour invented sliding past the fretboard. He also invented bending in tune."


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Bass Guitarists
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 12:23 pm 
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Yngtchie Blacksteen wrote:
Ssoyd wrote:
Good point because in music usually you never really know who did something first. Sheehan for example freely admits that virtually every technique he uses he "stole" (his words) from someone else. He was probably the first bassists to put so many different techniques together in a single package.

It also makes you sound like Turd. Example: "David Gilmour invented sliding past the fretboard. He also invented bending in tune."


Are bringing over some argument from the guitar forum that you would like us to debunk? :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Bass Guitarists
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 12:44 pm 
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I know this isn't Rock but I would like to share a track with a fantastic but virtually unknown Bass player, Robert Gordon, who played with Gil Scott-Heron in the early 80's. Make sure you listen to the beautiful solo between 7:00 and 8:00.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0pIioIc5lk


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Bass Guitarists
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 10:48 pm 
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StuBass wrote:
That interview does explain the mentality of a session player and why a guy who was instrumental in forming one of the greatest groups of musicians in rock history (Lukather, Jeff Porcaro, David Paich, and himself) decided to return to the studio after selling millions of records and hugely successful tours. Hungate, as an intregal part of Toto were honored to join such luminaries as The Funk Brothers, The Wrecking Crew, Chet Atkins, Charlie Daniels, Duane Eddy, Springsteen, etc in The Musicians Hall Of Fame in Nashville.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEHCJVFQ ... ata_player

The thing about Toto is that when fans went to see those guys perform, stage antics were definitely not what you were paying your money for, but rather the sheer excellence of the musicianship and the tightness of the ensemble which Hungate played a significant role...much like Steely Dan. Few gimmicks in their recordings and performances...just virtuosity to a man.


That was pretty cool. What's the musicians hall of fame exactly? Definitely adds to Hungate's claim to having a good spot on this list, knowing that he was inducted.

Negative Creep wrote:
I just wanna say the combination of James Jamerson and Jackie Wilson is absolutey, colosally brilliant.
The greatest bass player in rock + one of the top 10 greatest rock vocalists ever = mind-blowing music.

I FUCKING LOVE MOTOWN.


I need to discover Jackie! I haven't really listened to anything of his yet. What did you think, incidentally, of the argument on the vocalists subforum that Jackie should realistically be above Plant in greatness?

Ssoyd wrote:
Ariel wrote:
Yea I love him. Extremely creative


Sheehan is creative in a technical sense but musically/harmonically not so much. He plays the same stuff over and over. That's why I got bored with listening to Talas back then. Most of what he plays today is the same as what he did 30 years ago.


I think he's extremely creative musically actually, though indeed he's very lacking in terms of using the bass for harmonic purposes. He does have a very very distinctive style is the thing. I am indeed perplexed at how much he actually is progressing over time as a musician, I'm with you in that it seems to me he's never really significantly 'grown' since finding his sound, and that his playing/style remains very limited.

Yngtchie Blacksteen wrote:
Less use of 'invented' and more use of 'popularized', methinks.


Generally speaking people do use 'invented' too liberally and freely, but I feel like at this point I know enough about the history of the electric bass to know who the actual true 'inventors' were in many cases.

StuBass wrote:
Just another one of Hungates "day at the office" movie soundtracks he did on a consistant basis, in addition to his live orchestra television work (Sonny & Cher, Tony Orlando Show, etc)...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g19p1uEz ... ata_player


Oh my god!!!! He wrote that?! That's one of the best songs ever imo (not kidding) the whole soundtrack to that movie is utterly amazing. Did he write the whole soundtrack for that film???

Live orchestra television work...not sure what you mean...mind providing a link to that too? You mean composing, and/or arranging for orchestra? TV show themes?

Ssoyd wrote:
I know this isn't Rock but I would like to share a track with a fantastic but virtually unknown Bass player, Robert Gordon, who played with Gil Scott-Heron in the early 80's. Make sure you listen to the beautiful solo between 7:00 and 8:00.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0pIioIc5lk


Man that was fantastic. Not just the solo but the song and Gil there in general. I love Gil, tho I only know the famous song really at this point sadly (The Revolution Will Not Be Televised)


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