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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Bass Guitarists
PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 2:03 pm 
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Have a safe trip Ariel...

Speaking of (Vanilla Fudge) covers...at least they changed the attitude from the originals. You Keep Me Hanging On is a good example of taking The Supremes pop version and creating a quasi psychedelic attitude...unlike some of the Rare Earth covers which were often just slowed down versions of the originals. That said...have you ever listened the Funk Brothers instrumental track on YKMHO...a masterpiece (it's on the Standing In The Shadows Of Motown soundtrack). Jamersons driving bassline is exquisite, along with the guitars playing octaves on Robert Whites intro creation. I couldn't say in good conscience that The Fudges interpretation is BETTER than the original (hard to improve on near perfection)...just stylistically different.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Bass Guitarists
PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 4:08 pm 
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StuBass wrote:
Have a safe trip Ariel...

Speaking of (Vanilla Fudge) covers...at least they changed the attitude from the originals. You Keep Me Hanging On is a good example of taking The Supremes pop version and creating a quasi psychedelic attitude...unlike some of the Rare Earth covers which were often just slowed down versions of the originals. That said...have you ever listened the Funk Brothers instrumental track on YKMHO...a masterpiece (it's on the Standing In The Shadows Of Motown soundtrack). Jamerson's driving bassline is exquisite, along with the guitars playing octaves on Robert Whites intro creation. I couldn't say in good conscience that The Fudges interpretation is BETTER than the original (hard to improve on near perfection)...just stylistically different.


The two versions are so completely different that they are almost like different songs. I loved the original and I loved Fudges remake. When VF's version came out on the Album I lived on the same floor of a dorm in college with 3 members of the Wrestling team. I had this rather impressive stereo in my room and the guys would listen Fudge's "YKMHO" at full (and I mean LOUD!!) volume to get psyched up. None of them lost a match all year. At the time (1967) it was the closest thing there was to what would become heavy metal.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Bass Guitarists
PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 4:25 pm 
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Ssoyd wrote:
StuBass wrote:
Have a safe trip Ariel...

Speaking of (Vanilla Fudge) covers...at least they changed the attitude from the originals. You Keep Me Hanging On is a good example of taking The Supremes pop version and creating a quasi psychedelic attitude...unlike some of the Rare Earth covers which were often just slowed down versions of the originals. That said...have you ever listened the Funk Brothers instrumental track on YKMHO...a masterpiece (it's on the Standing In The Shadows Of Motown soundtrack). Jamerson's driving bassline is exquisite, along with the guitars playing octaves on Robert Whites intro creation. I couldn't say in good conscience that The Fudges interpretation is BETTER than the original (hard to improve on near perfection)...just stylistically different.


The two versions are so completely different that they are almost like different songs. I loved the original and I loved Fudges remake. When VF's version came out on the Album I lived on the same floor of a dorm in college with 3 members of the Wrestling team. I had this rather impressive stereo in my room and the guys would listen Fudge's "YKMHO" at full (and I mean LOUD!!) volume to get psyched up. None of them lost a match all year. At the time (1967) it was the closest thing there was to what would become heavy metal.

Probably a good thing they weren't drug testing athletes in those days :cop:


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Bass Guitarists
PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 5:55 pm 
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StuBass wrote:
Probably a good thing they weren't drug testing athletes in those days :cop:


Yea the adrenalin levels would have been sky high.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Bass Guitarists
PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 12:49 am 
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Brief "I'm still alive" comment:

I agree that Entwistle really came into his own in the early 70s, like Who's Next. The great 60s bassists in my mind - or at least those I'm really familiar with - are like, Macca, Jamerson, and Bruce or something


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Bass Guitarists
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 12:13 am 
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I suppose my point is that we really didn't know a LOT of bassists in the 60's in rock when compared to lead singers, guitarists, and even some drummers. It was post Jamerson (and few even knew his name back then since he wasn't in a known band) when bassists started getting noted for their musical contributions to the bands and ensembles after breaking out of the strictly supporting role in rock...since a lot of the bassists in 60's bands were often nothing more than the worst guitar player in the band who were assigned the role of "trying" to hold down the bottom. Entwistle is one of those who (pardon the pun), people began to recognise as contributing to the importance of the bass as an intregal part of the ensemble when given the opportunity to stretch and perform, and that began in the 60's...with My Generation being the fuse to many people.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Bass Guitarists
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 2:17 am 
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StuBass wrote:
I don't think I'm selling Marcus short. He's incredible...just not AS incredible as Jaco and Wooten in that genre. Victor is a genius IMO, and does things that nobody else would try, or even THINK to try. I saw him on television recently playing (solo) Amazing Grace...harmonically syncopating, filling, and chording...it WAS amazing.


See, this is interesting, since you're like Marcus fan #1 I know lol. I personally don't think Wooten's style is as distinctive as Marcus's, and that counts for a lot in my mind. Not counting soloing here, since anyone can be super creative with soloing if they think about it enough. (And to be fair Wooten has indeed done more for the art of bass soloing than anyone in a long long time, and deserves a hell of a lot of credit for that)

StuBass wrote:
I was supporting Macca for top ten back in the days when hardly anyone here saw him that high.


Oh, I remember those days! Wack times

StuBass wrote:
That said...his exposure as a Beatle has a lot to do with his popularity. Check out songwriting lists and forums and you'll find tons of people naming John Lennon as the GREATEST songwriter who ever lived. George Harrison is believed by a lot of folks as the MOST significant lead guitarist of all time. Even Ringo gets credit likely far beyond his actual proficiency on drums when technically compared to others. Being a Beatle automatically gets you points in impact and influence since so many people have been exposed to the music...admittedly great stuff...but the fine line between popularity and actual musical influence and impact can blur at times. Sit Macca down in a room with Tony Levin, Freddie Washington, and Victor Wooten...count off 1-2-3-4 on some shit and just let them all play and I seriously doubt that Macca will come out on top in virtually anybodys opinion, so long as the judges are blindfolded.


Thing is tho, Macca innovated and invented a new approach to bass, period. He was the starter of the 'subtle melodic touches' thing, that whole school of playing. Him being in the Beatles has nothing to do with that. He also was one of the very first creative rock bassists ever. He's oft imitated never replicated playing wise. He's one of the most distinctive bassists ever.

What you're saying about improv ability isn't relevant very much to the list imo. Actually I'm continually amazed at how unintuitive chord changes in Beatle music is. He also has displayed he can do walking lines with songs like All My Loving. I reckon he's among the most capable of the famous rock guys EVER in terms of knowing the different intervals in the different keys, etc on bass, by heart with his hands.

Speaking of McCartney...

Ssoyd wrote:
When rating bassists you have to compare them to their peers. Compared to other bassists of the 60"s McCartney compares favorably with only Jamerson, Bogert and possibly Bruce coming out ahead. The more modern bassists have their predecessors to build off of. Wooten is a genius but again he built off of what Jaco did who of course learned from those that came before him. I consider Jaco a greater bass player than Wooten not because he was a better or more skilled player, he wasn't, but because compared to his contemporaries and those who came before he was stylistically and creatively far more advanced than Wooten is compared to his contemporaries. As far as advancing the art of playing bass and the impact he had on those that followed Jaco is IMO equal to Jamerson. In interviews by players from Wooten, Will Lee, Geddy Lee, Marcus Miller, Steve Bailey, and several others I've read they admire Jaco as a Bass God.


I would say Macca and Jamerson are tied. Macca beats Bruce as good as that dude is. Don't know Bogert well enough yet but my impression was that he was inferior to Macca, though still absolutely brilliant. (Saying someone is inferior creativity wise to Macca is hardly a dig!)

I do not consider Wooten a genius -- highly creative in terms of unaccompanied playing, an innovator, yes. But I really reserve the term 'genius' for a small group!

I keep wondering whether Jaco should be #1 on the eventual all genre bassists list on this subforum (a list I'm not concerned with working on right now, fwiw...this list is more important right now). It's a painful thing to think about

StuBass wrote:
I suppose my point is that we really didn't know a LOT of bassists in the 60's in rock when compared to lead singers, guitarists, and even some drummers. It was post Jamerson (and few even knew his name back then since he wasn't in a known band) when bassists started getting noted for their musical contributions to the bands and ensembles after breaking out of the strictly supporting role in rock...since a lot of the bassists in 60's bands were often nothing more than the worst guitar player in the band who were assigned the role of "trying" to hold down the bottom. Entwistle is one of those who (pardon the pun), people began to recognise as contributing to the importance of the bass as an intregal part of the ensemble when given the opportunity to stretch and perform, and that began in the 60's...with My Generation being the fuse to many people.


I wasn't around back then obviously, but...

I agree - you've proven rather thoroughly and respectably, going back to the 2005 incarnation of the DDD forum - that Jamerson was the 'Big Bang' for creative rock bass playing, period. That's the reason he'll ALWAYS be #1 on this list, btw.

'My Generation' was no doubt one of the HUGE evolutionary steps in rock bass but 'tis the only thing John did in the 60s decade on that level, I think, in terms of being a big deal. He absolutely exploded in '70, '71 though. But ehh another part of me says that he already was innovating a lot in the 60s, his style hadn't reached maturity yet but he was already playing, as early as the first Who album (the one with My Generation on it), a distinctive and original country/western/'twang'-influenced style.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Bass Guitarists
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 10:01 am 
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Yes...I'm a big Marcus fan (although his rock standing does remain somewhat in question). In an all genre setting I'd put him right there with Stanley Clarke (you can almost add Pattitucci to that class)...close, almost, just about, nipping at the heels, damn near the VERY top of the elite...just not QUITE there...but knocking on the door. I'm out of cliches.

Wooten just does stuff nobody else can (or would even think of doing).

Sir Paul is also right "up there" in rock. Tech skill and versatility would be where a question mark may indeed exist IMO. I think the same "Beatle" factor which gives all of them automatic credibility on some level can also work in reverse with others who don't take them real seriously as musicians BECAUSE they were Beatles.

Absolutely agree that Entwistle hit his stride in the 70's in innovation and creativity, coinciding with the musical maturity and sophistication of The WHO...but their earlier stuff set the stage for what was to come later. I actually like Entwistles earlier 60's more bluesy style. The My Generation era stuff allowed John and the rest of the band the credibly expand their musical horizons...but started impacting and influencing way back then.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Bass Guitarists
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 2:49 pm 
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StuBass wrote:
Yes...I'm a big Marcus fan (although his rock standing does remain somewhat in question). In an all genre setting I'd put him right there with Stanley Clarke (you can almost add Pattitucci to that class)...close, almost, just about, nipping at the heels, damn near the VERY top of the elite...just not QUITE there...but knocking on the door. I'm out of cliches.

Wooten just does stuff nobody else can (or would even think of doing).


Haha. I hear ya

StuBass wrote:
Sir Paul is also right "up there" in rock. Tech skill and versatility would be where a question mark may indeed exist IMO. I think the same "Beatle" factor which gives all of them automatic credibility on some level can also work in reverse with others who don't take them real seriously as musicians BECAUSE they were Beatles.


Versatility is pretty solid IMO. Tech skill is often very very underrated. What you're saying about the 'automatic credibility working in reverse' is something I've seen a lot and it's really annoying, lol. I mean that's why people used to bitch about Paul being top 10 to begin with.

StuBass wrote:
Absolutely agree that Entwistle hit his stride in the 70's in innovation and creativity, coinciding with the musical maturity and sophistication of The WHO...but their earlier stuff set the stage for what was to come later. I actually like Entwistles earlier 60's more bluesy style. The My Generation era stuff allowed John and the rest of the band the credibly expand their musical horizons...but started impacting and influencing way back then.


Yea there's definitely something to be said for 60s John too, you're right, I"ve been selling him short. His style was much less out front back then but he already was playing with this very unique 'twang' country/western thing going back to 'My Generation'.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Bass Guitarists
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 3:02 pm 
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StuBass wrote:
You forgot a guy named Entwistle :durr: as "top tier" 60's bassists Ssoyd (I assume unintentionally). I think Ariel may have misinterpreted my earlier post where I mentioned the VERY few guys who stand head and shoulders above all others, although those I mentioned are strictly what shoots off the top of MY head, and while I think those players are widely recognized as such by many if not most knowledgable bassophiles. People may have a personal favorite to throw into the mix...but, do these others outpace the "big 4"...Jamerson and Entwistle in rock and Jaco and Wooten in "fusion" (or other than Rock genres) on bass guitar? The exclusivity of those elite guys (OK...throw in another if you wish) is based on really more than just any criteria. Its the nature of the DISRUPTIVE effect they've all had not only on THEIR individual instrument and their genre...but goes well beyond their specific instrument (bass) and has a greater impact on music in general. These are the Charlie Parkers, Enrique Carusos and Art Tatums of their specific disciplines...true Legends. I just don't see McCartney deserving of that status on bass despite his massive popularity and obvious influence, but as a Beatle he is undeniably in that class. The Beatles (the whole...not just the sum of it's parts) were disruptive to that extent)


I love what you say about disruption, it is so beautiful and true.

If you want to just talk the most disruptive of the disruptive, yea in rock it's just Jamerson and Entwistle.

In fusion it's...just Jaco I'd think, as much as I love Wooten.

StuBass wrote:
Disruption Pt 2...

Just to further explain what seperates the elites I mentioned to the "lesser" greats reminds me of the story Jack Bruce (a surefire top 5 IMO) amusingly told on the Jamerson memorial CD. Bruce relates how Jamerson mistakenly walked into a studio where Bruce was recording one day. After exchanging pleasantries, Jamerson listened to the part Bruce was playing and told Jack..."No...THIS is what you should be playing" and Bruce readily and happily admits that Jamerson "corrected" his bassline. Who the hell would EVER have the nerve to tell Jamerson, Entwistle, Victor, Jaco, Yardbird, Tatum, or Caruso..."THIS is what you should be playing (or singing)", other than perhaps the person paying them, and in that case would likely (and sheepishly) suggest ..."that's not quite what I was looking for". That's what puts those elite few in that highly exclusive class.


I love that story!

Ssoyd wrote:
Actually leaving out Entwistle was intentional because IMO he didn't hit his stride until the 70's. There is nothing in Entwistle's bass playing from the 60's that can compare with the other 3 I mentioned and that includes the My Generation solo which is overrated in my opinion. I remember back in the 60's while in college nobody really put Entwistle in the same class as Bruce and Bogert (nobody knew Jamerson's name). The advantage to being an old timer is I remember clearly who the standouts were back then and who people considered the best players. Of course Jamerson's playing on Motown drew a lot of attention as did Joe Osborne on the "Age of Aquarius" single but nobody knew who they were. The Bass on the Pet Sounds album was also notable as was McCartney's playing. It should be noted that the "Pet Sounds" album was extremely influential as it seemed that there were a slew of records that followed that had a similar bass sound and style. We all assumed that it was Wilson playing but I now know that he wrote the bass parts and Carol Kaye played them.


Wilson's written bass parts are so ridiculously brilliant and innovative in rock's history, I've been thinking we have to give him an honorary high spot on this list. Like, top 20 minimum.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Bass Guitarists
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 6:37 pm 
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Ariel wrote:
Wilson's written bass parts are so ridiculously brilliant and innovative in rock's history, I've been thinking we have to give him an honorary high spot on this list. Like, top 20 minimum.


Wilson, like McCartney, was a brilliant songwriter and had outstanding melodic sense which showed up in his bass writing.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Bass Guitarists
PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 8:44 am 
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Been on vacation (yeah, two weekends out of town, go figure). I'll get back to this in earnest when I get back tomorrow...cheers. Sorry for being erratic but I'm excited to keep working on the list! Bought some albums two days ago, some in part for the bass playing (will help me with this list), Benefit by Tull, Rush's first album, and others. Cheers


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Bass Guitarists
PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 5:12 pm 
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Ariel and guys...I've got what I believe to be a great idea and a fitting tribute. James Jamerson Jr (actually James Jamerson lll since James was actually a Jr) at the # 100 spot on the list. First, JJ Jr is a fine bassist. My brother used him on some west coast sessions when Sr wasn't available and he performed admirably on a couple of major sessions, and Jr played on hits for Teena Marie, The Fifth Dimension, Lenny Williams, Stargard, The Crusaders, Janet Jackson, and many others, and toured with several top R&B and pop acts, plus had his own group Chanson (French pronounciation). I' ve got a great (heartwarming) story regarding my brother, James Jr and James Sr which was in the Dec 2004 (I think) edition of Bass Player magazine. Perhaps I'll relate it when time allows.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Bass Guitarists
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 8:35 pm 
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Back!

StuBass wrote:
Ssoyd wrote:
I consider only 2 Bass Guitar players truly disruptive in this way and they are Jamerson and Jaco.


Lots of stuff to ponder. Agree that Jamerson and Jaco were the elite of the elite...#1's, however, being a disruptive influence can encompass a select few others who expanded, helped define, or exposed a discipline to others in a more contemporary manner. Louis Armstrong was perhaps the most disruptive horn player ever...but Dizzy Gillespie (not to mentione Miles) also disrupted the status quo. Wynton Marsalis took things to a new level based on the contributions from all those who disrupted before him. I put Wooten ( whose influences were not just limited to Jaco) in much the same position as Marsalis in that respect. His technical skill has allowed him to expand the performance aspect of Jaco and Jamerson. Same as Pavrotti took singing to a level of popularity not seen since Caruso, or Buddy Rich took Krupas innovations leaps and bounds to new technical realities.

Joe Osborns bassline on Age Of Aquarius...as great as is was just Joe doing what he did best...creating exquisite lines...some simple, others relatively complex , but Joe didn't develop a specific recognizable style like Jamerson. He just used his musicality to find ways to fit the bill.
I see your point on Entwistle...but prepare to dodge the missiles lobbed at you by those who see My Generation as the defining and significant bass contribution of the 60's LOL.


Yea I'm not sure Joe was disruptive, but damn is he a good player! You guys totally sold me with 'Let the Sun Shine In' which I also was super impressed by just in terms of being a great song!

Ssoyd wrote:
Yes I understand but as someone who was there at the time and knew the reaction of people to it at the time the bass solo [to "My Generation"] was considered pretty cool but far from revolutionary or earth shaking. I didn't think it came close to what Motown (Jamerson) was producing or what Bogert did shortly after. I even thought McCartney's playing was better. Like all legends, in time their importance grows to become greater than what they were in reality.


Well it's definitely cool to hear from you what people actually thought back then, e.g. when you said that The Lemon Song was not considered as necessarily some masterpiece when it first came out, bass wise...very interesting. Was Bogert considered a bass genius during the Vanilla Fudge era, by people? Was Macca, in the 60s?

Classic Rock Junkie wrote:
So what would you say are Chris Squire's most difficult performances?


Close to the Edge is a killer, Heart of the Sunrise is hard as shit, same with Sound Chaser. Those three really, off the top of my head

StuBass wrote:
I dunno...maybe its just me, but I believe that any bassist who appears on stage wearing a cape, playing shirtless in their underpants, has gold stars implanted in their teeth, or wears a helmet with horns, deserves to drop a slot on this list , although bad mullets and porkpie hats are OK (I guess) LOL.


Let's be fair to Flea, it wasn't shirtless in underpants, it was a tube sock!!!

Ssoyd wrote:
Ariel wrote:
Listening to a Dixie Dregs song on Pandora right now and wow Andy West is sick


Are you sure it's Andy West because Dave LaRue has been their bass player since 1988 and he's probably better than West.


Actually, in this case yes.

I'll get to the other posts later.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Bass Guitarists
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 8:47 pm 
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General top 50 observations (many new):

- Bruce vs Squire is still bugging me bleh
- Has most of #9 Anthony Jackson's playing even been in rock? Is he even really a rock player?
- I still need to learn more about #12 Chuck Rainey. (Comment not directed to anyone in particular...just thinking aloud)
- Not sure shredders Sheehan (#13), LaRue (#22) and Hamm (#20) deserve quite as high spots as they currently have
- Thinking Louis (Johnson, #18) needs to drop some more. #31 Nathan East DEFINITELY does, and considerably, unless there are some objections?
- Has most of #19 Abe Laboriel Sr.'s playing even been in rock? Is he even really a rock player? (I say this as an enormous fan of his, he's one of my faves!)
- Still need to learn more about #29 Will Lee (again, not that that's anyone's job here...I can do research online, heh)
- #33 David Hungate seems considerably too high to me
- Who's #34 Phil Chen and why is he so high???
- #35 Oteil Burbridge needs to drop DRASTICALLY, just need to figure out where to put him
- I love #36 Freddie Washington, but unless he's a lot more significant than I thought in bass history, I can't see him staying quite so high...and I've openly said before that I think Forget Me Nots might be the best bassline ever (courtesy of Stu showing it to me!)
- No idea why #37 Nathan Watts is so high
- Don't know crap about #38 Louis Satterfield, need to learn more!
- Bogert obviously needs to move up a LOT
- Need to learn about #49 George Porter (he made the cover of Bass Player when I was a subscriber, so I'm sure he's really legit, just don't know jack about him!)

...

GENERALLY SPEAKING, the top 50 is WAY session player heavy. Some of these dudes deserve very high spots. Many (most) probably don't.


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