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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Bass Guitarists
PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 7:49 am 
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Ariel wrote:
FWIW I agree pretty strongly with Boobs here.


If you read my follow up I think you'll get a different perspective. He and I have a different idea of what the words "crazy" and 'Tasteful" mean in a musical context.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Bass Guitarists
PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 12:00 pm 
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What Ssoyd said :thumb: !!!...A small example...Take Billy Sheehan.Good player. The rap on him is that in the past he's played unnecessarily fast and busy when it didn't enhance (or even support) the overall ensemble. As he's matured as a musician, he's even admitted as much in interviews. Many other similar examples of this in music. Not talking here about musicians who take risks based on sound fundamentals and those risks gain acceptance over a period of time. As for "gimmickry" being used to get hot chicks. I'm ALL for that :cool:


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Bass Guitarists
PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 6:17 pm 
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Sheehan has also showed he can do more than shred. Listen to his stuff with Niacin.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Bass Guitarists
PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 8:37 pm 
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Ok thanks for clearing things up Ssoyd, now that you have I don't find myself disagreeing with much of what you said.

But yeah I define "crazy" a little differently. That word makes me think less Billy Sheenan or whoever the poster child for super technical bass playing is and more along the lines of Les Claypool, John Wetton or Chris Squire (three of my favorites), as in what they play is really weird and out there, as opposed to just being a machine gun attack of notes.

I like all kinds of bass playing though. Some of my favorite bass players are technical masters (Tony Levin, Stanley Clarke) and some of my favorite bass players are either incredibly minimalistic or not too skilled but I freaking love what they do (Tina Weymouth, Colin Greenwood). Musical context is the most important thing to me.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Bass Guitarists
PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 5:19 pm 
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Speaking of Tina Boobs I've added her to my 'possibles' list of possible inclusions for this list, I just need more feedback from people. Mind linking/mentioning some of her more noteworthy performances btw? I don't know her that well but what I've heard really impressed me

I love Greenwood but I'm not sure he's top 100 by the criteria. Not that you argued for it or anything, he's just someone I've been debating in my head whether he should be added to the 'possibles' list I have.

(Yes, a lot of this is just a long-winded way to semi-subtly suggest you look at my last big post about 'possibles' and who should probably be dropped)


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Bass Guitarists
PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 5:26 pm 
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boo boo wrote:
In popular music the "gimmicks" are usually the aesthetics outside of the music itself. The fashion, the stage anctics, props, sometimes personas and sometimes the lyrical subject matter. But most musicians, even commercial ones are really just playing the way they prefer to play. I think it's unfair to call any musician's style of playing gimmicky, as it makes vague assumptions about why he/she plays the way he/she does.

Maybe that hypothetical bass player uses a lot of slapping because he simply likes the way it sounds, and not simply because he's trying to get with the hot chicks with dreadlocks who hang out at Bonnaroo.


QFT


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Bass Guitarists
PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 5:44 pm 
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Ssoyd wrote:
Ariel wrote:
FWIW I agree pretty strongly with Boobs here.


If you read my follow up I think you'll get a different perspective. He and I have a different idea of what the words "crazy" and 'Tasteful" mean in a musical context.


I agree with pretty much everything Boo Boo has said so far in this whole discussion about 'crazy'. I also to some extent assumed when you said 'crazy' you were thinking more Squire/Wetton/Claypool/etc.

I have two pretty strong beliefs here:

1) In music - and probably all art - there seems to be this strange resistance on the part of much of the musician/artist community to new ideas and styles of playing an instrument, or whatever. This by the way is why I'm not subscribed to Bass Player mag, despite their cool interviews and stuff they as an editorial board very transparently believe and not-so-subtly consistently push the idea that the only 'real' bass playing is 'traditional' playing, which, as Boobs said, basically means boring/derivative/musically inoffensive playing which has no ambition of moving bass playing forward as an art or even being musically distinctive. Nothing WRONG per se with that style of playing but to privilege that style of playing OVER more creative or new or unique styles seems at best wrongheaded to me.
2) There's a very, very thin and blurry line, it seems to me, between 'busy' and 'too busy' bass playing (same with drumming etc). Keith Moon was as busy as any drummer ever has been in rock, but this ENHANCED the music by creating a sort of wall of sound and an energy sonically. So the idea that playing very fast or complicated lines on drums or bass or what have you is linked to 'damaging' the music seems wrong to me, to put it bluntly.

Squire, Burton, Harris, (early) David Ellefson, Billy Sheehan, Claypool, Jack Bruce, Martin Turner, Geddy, Entwistle obviously, I could go on and on...Clarke in the realm of fusion...these dudes played very, very busy and often improvisational bass parts, and it MADE THE BAND BETTER AND MORE INTERESTING AND DYNAMIC. The idea that playing 'busy' parts or improvising heavily is a bad thing on bass in rock is frankly anathema to me and irritates me greatly. As a musician, I personally take after the type of bass player we're talking about here. I'm glad I do. I think more of us should strive to be the Keith Moon (in a way a model to me of what free-spirited playing can be if it's musically or artistically interesting, a style that's a musical ambition of mine as a musician), less of us the Cliff Williams, to put it rather bluntly.

By and large, NONE of the players I just mentioned very often get 'too busy' in my opinion. This is where I may happen to disagree with many 'traditionalists' in the bass community. But frankly, I think I'm right here.

While we're at it...I hasten to note that most all (maybe all?) of the great rock ensembles are great precisely because they're made up of combos of musicians who are each individually highly distinctive and artistically ambitious and not afraid to innovate or even 'break the rules' on their instrument, or at the very least have prominent and creative musical voices...from the Who to Yes to Rust-era Megadeth to Cream to Zeppelin to the Beatles to even the Stones, to Rush to 80s Crimson to Queen to 80s Metallica to Iron Maiden to 90s Death to...


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Bass Guitarists
PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 6:05 pm 
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People who I currently am under the impression, need to be lowered or dropped off the list:
- Bobby Sheehan
- Rex Brown
- the Symphony X dudes
- Leo Lyons
- the Eagles guy
- Ron Wood
- Randy Coven
- Billy Gould
- Marshall Lytle
- Billy Cox
- Phil Lynott (does anyone actually care about his bass playing?)
- Trey Gunn (y'all are right and convinced me: he's not a bass player)
- Willie Dixon (who the f put him here and WHY)
- Bill Black

Possible replacements/additions to the list:

- Colin Greenwood (Radiohead)?
- Mark Hoppus (Blink 182)? (eww)
- Andy Rourke (Smiths)
- Mike Dirnt (Green Day)?
- Randy Coven (Steve Vai, solo)?
- Jason Newsted (Metallica, Flotsam and Jetsam, Voivod)
- Chris Wolstenholme (Muse)?
- Steve DiGiorgio (Death, session man)
- Peter Hook (Joy Division, New Order)
- Paul Simonon (The Clash)
- Audie Pitre (Acid Bath)
- Martin Turner (Wishbone Ash)
- Tina Weymouth (Talking Heads)?
- Jeroen Paul Thesseling (Obscura)
- Roger Patterson and Tony Choy (Atheist)
- Sean Malone (Cynic)
- Ray Shulman (Gentle Giant)
- Peter Cetera (Chicago)
- Sting (The Police, solo)?
- Roger Waters (Pink Floyd, solo)
- Stuart Zender (Jamiroquai)?
- P-Nut (311)?
- Jean-Yves 'Blacky' Theriault (Voivod)
- JJ Burnel (Stranglers)?
- John Taylor (Duran Duran)?
- Nick Beggs (Kajagoogoo)?
- Lemmy Kilmister (Motorhead)?
- Frank Bello (Anthrax)?
- Pete Trewavas (Marillion)?
- Also where should Marcus Miller go on this list? Tricky I reckon

Added a few new names to the 'possibles' list here


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Bass Guitarists
PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 6:33 pm 
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Well Willie Dixon played with Chuck Berry so he can count as a rock bassist, but bass guitarist? Did he ever play bass guitar?

Also Bill Black totally deserves to be on the list. He's one of the first truly influencial bassists in rock music.

Phil Lynot is totally an underrated bassist, watchoo talkin bout? Anyone who doubts his groove should listen to Black Rose: A Rock Legend on a good subwoofer.

As for the suggestions.

I don't think Jason Newsted should be on this list at all, I don't think he's "the worst bassist EVAR!!1!!!" like some Cliff Burton fanboys would have you believe but he really was pretty forgettable and disposable IMO. I can't think of a single memorable bassline he's ever done that wasn't just following the guitar riff. The bass intro to My Friend of Misery is pretty cool, that's about all I can think of.

HELL YES on Peter Hook, Sting, Paul Simonon, Andy Rourke, JJ Burnell and Tina Weymouth. I detest how some of these lists pretend that punk rock, new wave and alternative rock never happened. It's infuriating.

Peter Cetera is also a good choice. And I love me some Ray Schulman, I don't know if he's influencial enough to make the list since he's relatively obscure, but he's truly one of the most underrated players in the business.

Roger Waters is underrated, lots of people hate his bass playing for how basic it is and yes David Gilmour is a better bass player, but I love his laid back approach and early Floyd wouldn't be what it is without it, and Money is obviously one of the most iconic basslines ever. Still, probably not top 100 material.


Last edited by boo boo on Tue Jan 31, 2012 6:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Bass Guitarists
PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 6:46 pm 
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How the hell was Peter Hook not here in the first place? :facepalm:


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Bass Guitarists
PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 7:04 pm 
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Ariel wrote:
Ssoyd wrote:
Ariel wrote:
FWIW I agree pretty strongly with Boobs here.


If you read my follow up I think you'll get a different perspective. He and I have a different idea of what the words "crazy" and 'Tasteful" mean in a musical context.


I agree with pretty much everything Boo Boo has said so far in this whole discussion about 'crazy'. I also to some extent assumed when you said 'crazy' you were thinking more Squire/Wetton/Claypool/etc.



Well I hope you realize that I agree with much what you are saying here but I think there is a tendency for fans of busy, adventurous playing to dismiss more traditional reserved playing to be some how "inferior" so it goes both ways (your description of such playing being "boring" for example). That is simply not true. It takes just as much skill to add just the right notes in just the right time while leaving space to good effect (I'm not talking about someone like Sting here who I think plays too simple and is boring). I say this as a bass player who was one who overplayed a lot in my earlier years (and was criticized for doing so) until I learned the art of subtlety. I still tend to play busily though. I think the best players are skilled at both and is one thing that made Jaco so great. Most people are impressed by some of his machine gun complex lines but I was just as impressed at how he could make the bass sing in delicate ways.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bSuCOcL39U


Last edited by Ssoyd on Tue Jan 31, 2012 7:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Bass Guitarists
PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 7:23 pm 
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Ariel wrote:

Possible replacements/additions to the list:

- Colin Greenwood (Radiohead)?
- Mark Hoppus (Blink 182)? (eww)
- Andy Rourke (Smiths)
- Mike Dirnt (Green Day)?
- Jason Newsted (Metallica, Flotsam and Jetsam, Voivod)
- Chris Wolstenholme (Muse)?
- Steve DiGiorgio (Death, session man)
- Peter Hook (Joy Division, New Order)
- Paul Simonon (The Clash)
- Audie Pitre (Acid Bath)
- Martin Turner (Wishbone Ash)
- Tina Weymouth (Talking Heads)?
- Jeroen Paul Thesseling (Obscura)
- Roger Patterson and Tony Choy (Atheist)
- Sean Malone (Cynic)
- Ray Shulman (Gentle Giant)
- Peter Cetera (Chicago)
- Sting (The Police, solo)?
- Roger Waters (Pink Floyd, solo)
- Stuart Zender (Jamiroquai)?
- P-Nut (311)?
- Jean-Yves 'Blacky' Theriault (Voivod)
- JJ Burnel (Stranglers)?
- John Taylor (Duran Duran)?
- Nick Beggs (Kajagoogoo)?
- Lemmy Kilmister (Motorhead)?
- Frank Bello (Anthrax)?
- Pete Trewavas (Marillion)?
- Also where should Marcus Miller go on this list? Tricky I reckon

Added a few new names to the 'possibles' list here


I thought we agreed that Sting and Roger Waters didn't belong. Being conservative and subtle is one thing but being absolutely minimalist is something else. Do you want that one note per bar guy from Linkin Park in there?
Mike Dint? Nah.
Peter Cetera? Absolutely!!!
Tina Weymouth? No.
Martin Turner? Fine Bass player and deserves consideration.
Jason Newsted? No
Sean Malone? Yes and not just because he plays fretless.
Lemmy? Possibly because he created a style and is good at it although he's not very technical or versatile.

I won't comment on the rest because I really haven't studied their bass playing.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Bass Guitarists
PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 8:46 pm 
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The difference is that as non technical as Sting's bass playing is (though I think he's more skilled than you give him credit for) he has a distinctive style and makes his present felt in every song. Nobody gives a shit about the bassist for Linkin Park. Please don't play that card.

I think Sting has had a considerable influence on the younger breed of rock bassists that followed in his path who adopted a combination of reggae/jazz/minimalist elements in their playing, particularly the ska punk and alternative metal bands that came about in the 90s.

Believe it or not Les Claypool cites Sting as a major influence, interpret that however you wish.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Bass Guitarists
PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:04 pm 
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Way more than 100 bass players make their presence felt, and way more than 100 do it better than Sting. This list is for the 100 Greatest Bass Players of All Time, for which Sting clearly isn't good enough.

How does Sting have influence on younger players? He's never done anything particularly interesting with the instrument, and in fact, I'd say Stewart Copeland was easily the primary factor in the reggae sound in The Police's music.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Rock Bass Guitarists
PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:18 pm 
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First off that isn't even remotely true and I now seriously doubt you have even listened to a Police album, even if it was, so what? How does having a drummer who is also reggae influenced detract from anything I said?

I also have no interest in what Billy Sheehan fans find interesting.


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