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 Post subject: Re: Why video games can never succeed as art
PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 9:54 pm 
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Lololol. Western gaming is in the shitter? That's gold. If you want great plots and characters (e.g. Bioshock), top quality visuals and art design, and strong gameplay design and concepts, go with western games. If you want a cute little nostalgia trip to remind you of where real gaming was 15 years ago, go with Japanese games.


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 Post subject: Re: Why video games can never succeed as art
PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 9:55 pm 
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Curiosity wrote:
Most of this is barely relevant to modern western gaming, which is where it's at and where the future of gaming is.


Only if you consider "western" gaming to be solely FPS. And even then, those games owe a tremendous debt to Miyamoto's innovations and for saving the video game industry.
And if you don't think Fallout or Bioshock or GTA are influenced by Zelda, you are seriously misguided.


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 Post subject: Re: Why video games can never succeed as art
PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 10:12 pm 
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If it's a game in the action adventure genre, it most definitely owes something to Zelda.

And if it's a platformer it most definitely owes something to Mario.

Like I said. Miyamoto made not one but two of the killer apps for the NES. Which will always be THE video game console that the entire console industry owes it's existence to. It lead to the creation of the Genesis, which lead to the first serious console war, creating the highly competitive environment that allowed companies like Sony and Microsoft to make an entrance.

And many of the greatest video game companies today, Capcom, Konami, Square, they owe a lot to Nintendo too.

Not everyone has to like Nintendo, but anyone who doesn't respect them for what they've done for the industry doesn't have the right to call themselves a gamer.

Unless they're a british person who only plays PC games because they're a fucking loser.


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 Post subject: Re: Why video games can never succeed as art
PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 10:17 pm 
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boo boo wrote:
creating the highly competitive environment that allowed companies like Sony and Microsoft to make an entrance.


... Both of whom have subsequently shat all over Nintendo, surpassing them completely artistically.


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 Post subject: Re: Why video games can never succeed as art
PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 10:20 pm 
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:lol:

Why am I doing this again?

You do realise the entire point of video games has nothing to do with artistic credibility, right?


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 Post subject: Re: Why video games can never succeed as art
PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 10:21 pm 
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Sherick wrote:
And if you don't think Fallout or Bioshock or GTA are influenced by Zelda, you are seriously misguided.


I think you're overstating your case a little, here. What in particular makes you think that those games are influenced by Zelda?


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 Post subject: Re: Why video games can never succeed as art
PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 10:23 pm 
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boo boo wrote:
:lol:

Why am I doing this again?

You do realise the entire point of video games has nothing to do with artistic credibility, right?


Disagree with you there but my point is that Sony/Microsoft have surpassed Nintendo in terms of game design by no small margin. Super Mario Bros was nice for it's time but as in overall achievement, Halo: Combat Evolved spanks it to death and then pisses on it's rotting corpse.


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 Post subject: Re: Why video games can never succeed as art
PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 10:25 pm 
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Forgotten Son wrote:
Sherick wrote:
And if you don't think Fallout or Bioshock or GTA are influenced by Zelda, you are seriously misguided.


I think you're overstating your case a little, here. What in particular makes you think that those games are influenced by Zelda?


I dunno about Fallout or Bioshock. But the GTA games are DEFINITELY influenced by Zelda.


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 Post subject: Re: Why video games can never succeed as art
PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 10:33 pm 
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Forgotten Son wrote:
Sherick wrote:
And if you don't think Fallout or Bioshock or GTA are influenced by Zelda, you are seriously misguided.


I think you're overstating your case a little, here. What in particular makes you think that those games are influenced by Zelda?


Just that Zelda innovated the gameplay that would eventually influence all RPGs. It's not direct influence I mean, more of a historical debt in the first two cases.
But being that they are both RPGs, they are in fact heavily influenced by the likes of Dragon Quest. It goes out of the Miyamoto discussion, but whatevs.

And you think I'm overstating my case? Really, have you been paying attention to this conversation?


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 Post subject: Re: Why video games can never succeed as art
PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 10:41 pm 
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Curiosity wrote:
boo boo wrote:
:lol:

Why am I doing this again?

You do realise the entire point of video games has nothing to do with artistic credibility, right?


Disagree with you there but my point is that Sony/Microsoft have surpassed Nintendo in terms of game design by no small margin. Super Mario Bros was nice for it's time but as in overall achievement, Halo: Combat Evolved spanks it to death and then pisses on it's rotting corpse.


:facepalm:

Jesus fucking Christ. This is getting unbearable.

Super Mario Bros revolutionized a whole new genre.
Halo did not.

Which game is better is obviously personal opinion. Something you don't seem to acknowledge.

This is one thing modern gamers don't understand, they think they can PROVE that a game looks and sounds better, as if the technical shit is all that matters. Truth is I can easily find an 8 bit game more aesthetically pleasing than the most state of the art graphics today. Especially when the former is much more colorful and inspired.

Halo has great graphics on a technical level but I don't really find it that inspired looking. The characters and aliens look generic, the guns look like giant super soakers and the vehicles look like they were designed by Mattel.

Fuck comparing Halo to SMB, if I compared Halo to Robotron 2084 it would still lose.

Now THAT was an awesome shooter. :irish:


Last edited by boo boo on Mon Nov 08, 2010 10:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Why video games can never succeed as art
PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 10:42 pm 
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The first Halo was the only one I ever really liked.


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 Post subject: Re: Why video games can never succeed as art
PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 10:47 pm 
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Everybody here right now, no matter which side of the argument you are on, I command you all to read this now if you haven't already
http://www.cracked.com/article_16196_7- ... -obey.html


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 Post subject: Re: Why video games can never succeed as art
PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 10:53 pm 
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boo boo wrote:
:facepalm:

Jesus fucking Christ. This is getting unbearable.

Super Mario Bros revolutionized a whole new genre.
Halo did not.


Yes it did. Two weapon system, implementation of vehicles, streamlined integration of grenades, open-ended battles, melee attacks...

Quote:
This is one thing modern gamers don't understand, they think they can PROVE that a game looks and sounds better, as if the technical shit is all that matters. Truth is I can easily find an 8 bit game more aesthetically pleasing than the most state of the art graphics today. Especially when the former is much more colorful and inspired.


Actually I agree with that.

Quote:
Halo has great graphics on a technical level but I don't really find it that inspired looking. The characters and aliens look generic, the guns look like giant super soakers and the vehicles look like they were designed by Mattel.


On the contrary, besides the first Halo, none of the Halo games have had particularly impressive visuals from a technical perspective. The art carries it.


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 Post subject: Re: Why video games can never succeed as art
PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 10:58 pm 
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Sherick wrote:
Just that Zelda innovated the gameplay that would eventually influence all RPGs. It's not direct influence I mean, more of a historical debt in the first two cases.
But being that they are both RPGs, they are in fact heavily influenced by the likes of Dragon Quest. It goes out of the Miyamoto discussion, but whatevs.


I don't know a great deal about the Zelda franchise, but the history of RPG video games is a comparatively long one and goes back before Zelda. I think the old pen and paper RPGs are far more signicant in influencing Western RPGs than Japanese video games. Point n' click adventures are also incredibly important also.

Sherick wrote:
And you think I'm overstating my case? Really, have you been paying attention to this conversation?


I've joined late, but I'm not taking sides. If I see something that I disagree with I post a response. It doesn't necessarily mean I agree with Curiosity. If anything I chose to respond to you because you're a reasonable poster and my reply won't be for nothing.

Curiosity wrote:
Yes it did. Two weapon system, implementation of vehicles, streamlined integration of grenades, open-ended battles, melee attacks...


While Halo popularised some of those things it wasn't the first to do any of them. I have no idea what you mean by "open-ended battles".


Last edited by Forgotten Son on Mon Nov 08, 2010 11:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Why video games can never succeed as art
PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 11:01 pm 
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Fair enough. Its true that RPG is a real mixmatch genre with lots of varying influence. I'm referring more to the innovations of the medium though, going back to the Shigeru argument.


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