i like how this all started by trying to argue against Russell by using winshares, without mentioning that Russell played a lot less games than a lot of the players above him on the career win shares list. if you divide the winshares by the career games, its a much different number (although you could argue staying past your prime hurts you in this way of doing it, poor Kareem):

1. Wilt
2. Jordan
3. Oscar
4. Robinson
5. Kareem
6. West
7. Magic
8. Russell
9. Barkley
10. Bird


and i'll add that while i hate winshares, if you are gonna mention them, mention the defensive winshares for Russell:
1. Bill Russell* 133.64
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 94.49
3. Hakeem Olajuwon* 94.47
4. Wilt Chamberlain* 93.92
5. Karl Malone* 92.41

^notice how the 2-5 group is extremely close and Russell has 140% of what they have (despite not playing close to as many games). if statistical dominance is something you are gonna put any faith in, lets be fair to Russell.

^btw, that's not me using winshares as an argument. simply pointing out that using winshares to argue against Russell is useless.

Pave, how do you view Win Shares simply as a comparative tool between players in a single team to determine their approximate worth?

i think its very tricky. take the '06 Suns for example (the year Amare got hurt). Win Shares would tell you the approximate worth of the players would be:

1. Shawn Marion
2. Steve Nash

but i watched more '06 Suns games than maybe any other non-Pacers team in my life. Nash was the engine. i'm not gonna say Marion was a Nash-creation or something, because clearly he was an excellent player who grabbed tons of boards and guarded the other teams' best player no matter what position. but Nash had a team-wide impact that is noticeable even as the talent around him left and his team stayed in the top 5-10 in offensive efficiency despite it. he makes things easier for everyone, leads the league in assists at the rim every year, gets buckets for guys who can't create their own, etc. there is no way Marion was more important, no matter what winshares says. we all saw it. there is just no way to statistically prove that Nash improved the eFG% of everyone on that team (except look at their efficiency on other teams and compare it to playing with Nash, its alarming in most cases). but he did. he was getting guys open dunks in a half-court offense against good defensive teams. the dude was just amazing.

You're definitely right about Marion vs. Nash.

However, I'll note that defensive win shares are a bad stat.

i wish there was a good way to measure the impact of a defensive anchor. today, we can look at the Magic's stats with Howard vs without and see the difference. historically, defensive anchors have been dominant rim-protecting big men. we have no way of proving that is the case with Russell. except all secondhand reports (including teammates and opponents) point to him being a dominant defender who anchored the Celtics D. which is important because they often had the worst or second worst offense in the league once Cousy retired. but they won championships with dominating defense and a huge difference in shot attempts (which i can only assume means they either forced a lot of turnovers or dominated the offensive boards but i dont know because the stats are not there)


what i do know is that during those years of suffocating defense, Bill Russell was playing nearly 45 minutes a game and his teammates were between 30-33 minutes a game.

i dont know if its just rumor, but apparently the new Dream Team documentary has footage of the Monte Carlo scrimmage. i dont know how much. but even seeing a few highlights from a security camera is fine with me.

Here's the career leaders in WIN SHARES per 48 minutes:

Rank Player WS/48
1. Michael Jordan* .2505
2. David Robinson* .2502
3. Wilt Chamberlain* .2480
4. Neil Johnston* .2413
5. Chris Paul .2384
6. LeBron James .2327
7. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* .2284
8. Magic Johnson* .2249
9. Charles Barkley* .2163
10. Manu Ginobili .2156
11. Tim Duncan .2145
12. Jerry West* .2134
13. Bob Pettit* .2128
14. Dirk Nowitzki .2116
15. John Stockton* .2087
16. Shaquille O'Neal .2081
17. Oscar Robertson* .2069
18. Karl Malone* .2053
19. Larry Bird* .2032
20. Yao Ming .2001
21. Ed Macauley* .1964
22. Dwyane Wade .1955
23. Artis Gilmore* .1931
24. Bill Russell* .1927
25. Julius Erving* .1922

i agree manu should be top 10.

i love Ginobili but @ Ginobili > Duncan

The Big Dipper averaged OVER 48 minutes a game one season.

He once pulled down 26 rebounds in ONE HALF of a finals game.

The best playoff players per minute for one season:

1. LeBron James .3994 2009 CLE
2. George Mikan* .3912 1954 MNL
3. Hakeem Olajuwon* .3855 1988 HOU
4. Michael Jordan* .3325 1991 CHI
5. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* .3324 1977 LAL
6. Wilt Chamberlain* .3228 1964 SFW
7. Frank Ramsey* .3225 1959 BOS
8. Julius Erving* .3213 1976 NYA
9. Cliff Hagan* .3124 1958 STL
10. Steve Mix .3112 1978 PHI
11. Connie Hawkins* .3099 1968 PTP
12. Michael Jordan* .3064 1996 CHI
13. LeBron James .3027 2012 MIA
14. Paul Pierce .3009 2005 BOS
15. Cliff Hagan* .2983 1959 STL
16. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* .2971 1974 MIL
17. Dirk Nowitzki .2912 2010 DAL
18. Frank Ramsey* .2904 1957 BOS
19. Sam Jones* .2898 1964 BOS
20. Dolph Schayes* .2892 1954 SYR
21. Chris Paul .2887 2008 NOH
22. Dirk Nowitzki .2871 2004 DAL
23. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* .2859 1970 MIL
24. Bill Russell* .2857 1965 BOS
25. Dolph Schayes* .2838 1952 SYR

Nice to see the Mayor in there at #10. He's the only one of those guys who is not a HOF or future hall of famer. I'm actually not sure why he's there, though.

i'm in one of those basketball moods where i feel like i need to comment on the current version of the list.




i debated this with myself over and over again until i basically landed at this top 6 as it is. i've been underrating Wilt, who i used to have 6th. i think this makes sense. depending on how much emphasis is placed on historical significance, i think Magic/Bird could be above Kareem, given the importance they had on taking the league to insane heights of popularity. but i wouldn't do that, because i don't think either were as completely dominant as Kareem at his peak, nor did they have the same insane longevity.

in other words, don't change this top 6.




this is my first objection, as i think Hakeem is being underrated. between West, Oscar and Hakeem i think Dream is the only one of the three who was without question the best player in the league at one point in his career (granted, Jordan had retired). with Oscar, he won the one MVP but was never more dominant than Wilt or Russell. with West, he was basically the fourth or fifth best player in the league up until Russell and later Elgin retired and then Oscar fell off significantly and Wilt declined. but then almost immediately Kareem came in to the league and dominated. Dream for two seasons was completely untouchable. the only person who came close to him was David Robinson, who took a beating from Dream that is only rivaled by Jordan's obliteration of Drexler in terms of one alpha dog just crushing his so-called rival. Dream is underrated simply because people think of his titles as being the "Jordan was retired" championships, but that is unfair to the brilliance of Hakeem, who may be the best two-way center to ever play the game, and won two championships with no all-star caliber running mate (except an old, declining Drexler for the second one), and did so while simultaneously defeating his three closest rivals (Robinson, Shaq, and Ewing) in the biggest stages. i would put it:

Duncan > Shaq > Kobe >
Dream > Oscar > West




this is tricky because i'm not sure what emphasis "influence" has on the list. because it would explain the order of those top 4 a little better. but of those top four, Moses had the best career imo. Dr. J's best seasons came in a watered down league and he never replicated it in the NBA to that extant (although he was still brilliant, i won't ever take that away from him). Moses at his peak was not only better than Dr. J (who he played with and was clearly the MVP of the team, although Doc was a bit older by then), but at his peak it was debatable whether or not he was actually even better than Kareem (he probably wasn't, but the discussion was there). he was a 3 time MVP and the best player on a championship team. i think he clearly belongs at the top of this group.

i also think Malone should be dropped into the power forward foursome with Barkley, Garnett and Dirk, all sitting below Pettit/Cousy/Havlicek. then the discussion starts on those four, who could go in just about any order imaginable. but i honestly think at this point Dirk belongs in front of the other three. but its tough, all four are MVPs who took teams to the finals. Malone has the career stats because he played longer, but Barkley was better than him during his peak imo. Garnett was the best two-way player. but Dirk and Malone were more consistently successful. and ultimately i don't think any of the three ever played as well as Dirk did during last year's playoff run, which is why he gets the nod over them imo.

bigger thing though i i think LeBron has leapfrogged this whole group to being right under West/Robertson. compare him to Baylor or Dr. J and i think he comes out the winner. he is definitely the only one of them who was without question the best player of his generation.

LeBron >
Moses > Baylor > Dr. J > Mikan
Pettit > Havlicek > Cousy
Dirk > Malone > Garnett > Barkley



as for the rest, i think Nash > Iverson/Frazier. in fact, i think Nash may actually challenge Isiah and Stockton at this point. i also think we are underrating Ewing, who should be ahead of Hayes and Gervin at least, and probably Iverson as well. i would also stick Wade up above Gervin and Hayes too. and poor Walton was more valuable for 2 years than Hayes was for 2 decades. Walton had the peak talent of anyone from the top 12, he just had a shortened career. i also think we underrated McHale, who Barkley said was the best player he ever played against, Walton said he was the second best post-player of that era (next to Kareem) and everyone says could have been an MVP candidate if he wasn't overshadowed by Bird.


lookinag the the second half of the list, Neil Johnston is way too high. Reggie Miller's postseason success went on for so long (6 conference finals, 1 finals appearance, all of which were competitive and famous series) that he should be over Maravich/King/Lucas. if that means dragging Ray Allen up there too, i'm fine with that. although the Ray vs Reggie argument forgets that Ray never took any team deep in the playoffs until he was the third best player on his team, while Reggie took 5 teams deep and one in '98 was a few minutes from beating Chicago and possibly winning a title.

the end of the list could see a few new faces. Kevin Durant is already more accomplished than Vince. i would also argue that Derrick Rose's MVP and conference finals run puts him above Tim Hardaway. it seems weird because both guys are so young. but basketball careers are short by nature, so 3 or 4 years can basically make or break a career. i also think Ginobili could be considered for the bottom of the list near Gasol and Dandridge. i see no reason for Marques Johnson to be above him. dropping Hardaway, Marques and Vince for Ginobili, Rose and Durant is fine with me. or at least Durant and Ginobili while we wait on Rose for the time being.