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 Post subject: Re: NFL.
PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 11:52 pm 
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Tight fists don't go out and get Julius Peppers.

Bears fans are getting pretty pissed because we haven't won in a while, and dear old Mrs. McCaskey has to realize this. Unless a miracle happens, Lovie and Jerry Angelo (horrible GM) will be gone, and pretty much the whole organization will turn over. Cowher would do well in a HC/GM spot, and I think the idea of getting to control everything and pick his own players might be more attractive to him then having Jerry's big eye over his shoulder. I think he has a deep rooted respect for the Bears tradition and traditional mentality (not that the Cowboys don't have tradition, but Cower just seems like a Monsters of the Midway kind of guy).

All that said, the Bears have historically liked to harvest their own talent, so they'll most likely go to someone who hasn't had a head gig before.


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 Post subject: Re: NFL.
PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 11:53 pm 
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Who are the other big candidates this year?


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 Post subject: Re: NFL.
PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 12:54 am 
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corrections wrote:
I know. It's just fun to smack back. The Cowboys suck.


ha ok. your smack seemed considerably more hostile than mine. I guess that just means you're better at smack talking than me


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 Post subject: Re: NFL.
PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 7:40 am 
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vankush wrote:
Tight fists don't go out and get Julius Peppers.

Bears fans are getting pretty pissed because we haven't won in a while, and dear old Mrs. McCaskey has to realize this. Unless a miracle happens, Lovie and Jerry Angelo (horrible GM) will be gone, and pretty much the whole organization will turn over. Cowher would do well in a HC/GM spot, and I think the idea of getting to control everything and pick his own players might be more attractive to him then having Jerry's big eye over his shoulder. I think he has a deep rooted respect for the Bears tradition and traditional mentality (not that the Cowboys don't have tradition, but Cower just seems like a Monsters of the Midway kind of guy).

All that said, the Bears have historically liked to harvest their own talent, so they'll most likely go to someone who hasn't had a head gig before.

Well the Bears have been terrible because their drafts have been either horrific or lacking first round picks. The last good, healthy big man they picked was probably Tommie Harris in 2004. That's why the lines are terrible right now. Then, the Bears decided to compound this problem by trading away draft picks for players because of some strange misconception that they were only a player or two away from contention. The icing on the cake is that Kyle Orton has actually had a better passer rating in than Cutler did in Denver, except Orton has been with worse players.

Any turnaround is going to require the Bears to dump most of the offensive line and defense (that includes Urlacher and Briggs) and start drafting better, like the Buccaneers did a few years ago.

I'll admit they've done well this season so far with what they have, but I don't think they're built for any sort of long-term success.


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 Post subject: Re: NFL.
PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 1:13 pm 
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I agree that their main problem is the lack of talent/production on both lines, the reason they went to the Super Bowl in '06 was because their D-line was so good that they barely ever had to blitz. Orton's and Cutler's passer ratings is misleading. Cutler never played in McDaniel's offense, and part of the reason Orton's stats are so good is because its a QB friendly offense. Also, stats aren't everything. The Broncos are 2-5 with next to no hope of making the playoffs. Cutler's main problem has been the o-line, until two weeks ago, those 4 picks are squarely on him.

The Bears have actually done well drafting linebackers and cornerbacks, they always seem to have good young prospects (esp. at corner), but yeah the rest has been shit. I disagree 300% with having to get rid of Urlacher and Briggs. Those two, along with Tillman, are the main reason the Bears defense has ever been any good. Any turnaround has to involve them, there's no way they could find two other linebackers that good any time soon. Even if they dump the rest of the D (not Peppers, obviously), the presence of those veterans would allow them to make a more gentle shift to rebuilding rather than just starting from scratch. At this point, dumping Urlacher would be like the Cubs dumping Ernie Banks in the eyes of Chicago fans.

I don't see Lovie making it past this year, but honestly whatever coach they get is lucky, in the sense that he already will have a lot of young talent on offense, and has veteran leadership on defense. It'll be more like when Turner took over the Chargers (even though he hasn't done shit) than when Carroll took over the Seahawks.


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 Post subject: Re: NFL.
PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 6:21 pm 
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oh hi there randy moss


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 Post subject: Re: NFL.
PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 7:03 pm 
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vankush wrote:
I agree that their main problem is the lack of talent/production on both lines, the reason they went to the Super Bowl in '06 was because their D-line was so good that they barely ever had to blitz. Orton's and Cutler's passer ratings is misleading. Cutler never played in McDaniel's offense, and part of the reason Orton's stats are so good is because its a QB friendly offense. Also, stats aren't everything. The Broncos are 2-5 with next to no hope of making the playoffs. Cutler's main problem has been the o-line, until two weeks ago, those 4 picks are squarely on him.

The Bears have actually done well drafting linebackers and cornerbacks, they always seem to have good young prospects (esp. at corner), but yeah the rest has been shit. I disagree 300% with having to get rid of Urlacher and Briggs. Those two, along with Tillman, are the main reason the Bears defense has ever been any good. Any turnaround has to involve them, there's no way they could find two other linebackers that good any time soon. Even if they dump the rest of the D (not Peppers, obviously), the presence of those veterans would allow them to make a more gentle shift to rebuilding rather than just starting from scratch. At this point, dumping Urlacher would be like the Cubs dumping Ernie Banks in the eyes of Chicago fans.

I don't see Lovie making it past this year, but honestly whatever coach they get is lucky, in the sense that he already will have a lot of young talent on offense, and has veteran leadership on defense. It'll be more like when Turner took over the Chargers (even though he hasn't done shit) than when Carroll took over the Seahawks.

How are the numbers misleading? Are you suggesting that McDaniels is a better coach than Shanahan? Shanahan turned Jake Plummer into a good QB. He may be shady on the defense side, but Shanahan is among tops in the league when it comes to offense. Cutler had INT problems in Denver and he has INT problems in Chicago. Orton has thrown touchdowns at the same pace as Cutler, but with fewer INTs. It's debatable whether the Bears upgraded their QB situation, but they definitely lost two first round picks in the process.

On Urlacher, you're sounding exactly the same way a Buccaneers friend of mine did when they dumped Derrick Brooks. Urlacher is old, 32 years of age, and won't be a part of any turnaround. Briggs is 30. Their time was 2006; they're a shadow of their former selves. You don't rebuild by keeping the same players.

I and a number of other Bears friends of mine don't think Lovie is the problem. The good players got old and the young players are bad. When you don't have players to work with, you always look like a bad coach. Comparing to the Chargers is a little strange to me. That Chargers roster was stacked when Schottenheimer left. Rivers was way ahead of Cutler, the offensive line was young (and good), and the defense was bulging with talent in its prime such as Merriman, Castillo, Philips, Jammer, Cromartie, etc. Their arrow was clearly pointed up and no coach was going to perform poorly with that.


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 Post subject: Re: NFL.
PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 10:21 pm 
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lonewolf371 wrote:
On Urlacher, you're sounding exactly the same way a Buccaneers friend of mine did when they dumped Derrick Brooks. Urlacher is old, 32 years of age, and won't be a part of any turnaround. Briggs is 30. Their time was 2006; they're a shadow of their former selves. You don't rebuild by keeping the same players.

I and a number of other Bears friends of mine don't think Lovie is the problem. The good players got old and the young players are bad. When you don't have players to work with, you always look like a bad coach. Comparing to the Chargers is a little strange to me. That Chargers roster was stacked when Schottenheimer left. Rivers was way ahead of Cutler, the offensive line was young (and good), and the defense was bulging with talent in its prime such as Merriman, Castillo, Philips, Jammer, Cromartie, etc. Their arrow was clearly pointed up and no coach was going to perform poorly with that.

Urlacher and Briggs have both played out of their minds this year. They might not be in Chicago for another 10 years, but there's no reason to get rid of them, they can help keep the defense strong while the newbies learn their way. How did the Bucs do the year or two after they let Brooks go? One of the worst teams in the league, if I remember right.

Yeah I didn't really think too deeply about the Chargers analogy. I was just saying you wouldn't have to completely start from scratch and assume you'd only win 4 games the next year.

Lovie's a pretty good coach, but that means the Bears could never be better than "pretty good." He's a good coach for a winning team, but if the team struggles he's not the best motivator, and its his job to get the most out of his players, which isn't happening. I love Lovie, and I'm not trying to blame all the Bears woes on him, but the Bears have been stagnant for three years, and the only way to fix that is a culture change. If the head coach can't provide that, its time for a new coach.


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 Post subject: Re: NFL.
PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 11:29 pm 
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vankush wrote:
Tight fists don't go out and get Julius Peppers.

Bears fans are getting pretty pissed because we haven't won in a while, and dear old Mrs. McCaskey has to realize this. Unless a miracle happens, Lovie and Jerry Angelo (horrible GM) will be gone, and pretty much the whole organization will turn over. Cowher would do well in a HC/GM spot, and I think the idea of getting to control everything and pick his own players might be more attractive to him then having Jerry's big eye over his shoulder. I think he has a deep rooted respect for the Bears tradition and traditional mentality (not that the Cowboys don't have tradition, but Cower just seems like a Monsters of the Midway kind of guy).

All that said, the Bears have historically liked to harvest their own talent, so they'll most likely go to someone who hasn't had a head gig before.


Well the Cowboys will probably offer him double what the Bears are willing to pay for a coach.


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 Post subject: Re: NFL.
PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 11:32 pm 
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lonewolf371 wrote:
vankush wrote:
Tight fists don't go out and get Julius Peppers.

Bears fans are getting pretty pissed because we haven't won in a while, and dear old Mrs. McCaskey has to realize this. Unless a miracle happens, Lovie and Jerry Angelo (horrible GM) will be gone, and pretty much the whole organization will turn over. Cowher would do well in a HC/GM spot, and I think the idea of getting to control everything and pick his own players might be more attractive to him then having Jerry's big eye over his shoulder. I think he has a deep rooted respect for the Bears tradition and traditional mentality (not that the Cowboys don't have tradition, but Cower just seems like a Monsters of the Midway kind of guy).

All that said, the Bears have historically liked to harvest their own talent, so they'll most likely go to someone who hasn't had a head gig before.

Well the Bears have been terrible because their drafts have been either horrific or lacking first round picks. The last good, healthy big man they picked was probably Tommie Harris in 2004. That's why the lines are terrible right now. Then, the Bears decided to compound this problem by trading away draft picks for players because of some strange misconception that they were only a player or two away from contention. The icing on the cake is that Kyle Orton has actually had a better passer rating in than Cutler did in Denver, except Orton has been with worse players.

Any turnaround is going to require the Bears to dump most of the offensive line and defense (that includes Urlacher and Briggs) and start drafting better, like the Buccaneers did a few years ago.

I'll admit they've done well this season so far with what they have, but I don't think they're built for any sort of long-term success.


Yeah no. First, passer rating is a lousy statistic. While Orton has had a great year this year a lot of it has to do with Josh McDaniels scheme that with better players resulted in the best NFL offense ever and even made Matt freaking Cassel look like a pro bowler. Denver still has that line that Cutler had which was the bigger deal than Marshall (Lloyd is just as talented btw he just was a headcase everywhere else). As far as the Bears Chris Williams was pretty fucking talented but he got hurt at the start of the year.


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 Post subject: Re: NFL.
PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 11:33 pm 
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vankush wrote:
I agree that their main problem is the lack of talent/production on both lines, the reason they went to the Super Bowl in '06 was because their D-line was so good that they barely ever had to blitz. Orton's and Cutler's passer ratings is misleading. Cutler never played in McDaniel's offense, and part of the reason Orton's stats are so good is because its a QB friendly offense. Also, stats aren't everything. The Broncos are 2-5 with next to no hope of making the playoffs. Cutler's main problem has been the o-line, until two weeks ago, those 4 picks are squarely on him.

The Bears have actually done well drafting linebackers and cornerbacks, they always seem to have good young prospects (esp. at corner), but yeah the rest has been shit. I disagree 300% with having to get rid of Urlacher and Briggs. Those two, along with Tillman, are the main reason the Bears defense has ever been any good. Any turnaround has to involve them, there's no way they could find two other linebackers that good any time soon. Even if they dump the rest of the D (not Peppers, obviously), the presence of those veterans would allow them to make a more gentle shift to rebuilding rather than just starting from scratch. At this point, dumping Urlacher would be like the Cubs dumping Ernie Banks in the eyes of Chicago fans.

I don't see Lovie making it past this year, but honestly whatever coach they get is lucky, in the sense that he already will have a lot of young talent on offense, and has veteran leadership on defense. It'll be more like when Turner took over the Chargers (even though he hasn't done shit) than when Carroll took over the Seahawks.


Hey and DJ Moore is an awesome nickle corner.


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 Post subject: Re: NFL.
PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 11:35 pm 
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lonewolf371 wrote:
vankush wrote:
I agree that their main problem is the lack of talent/production on both lines, the reason they went to the Super Bowl in '06 was because their D-line was so good that they barely ever had to blitz. Orton's and Cutler's passer ratings is misleading. Cutler never played in McDaniel's offense, and part of the reason Orton's stats are so good is because its a QB friendly offense. Also, stats aren't everything. The Broncos are 2-5 with next to no hope of making the playoffs. Cutler's main problem has been the o-line, until two weeks ago, those 4 picks are squarely on him.

The Bears have actually done well drafting linebackers and cornerbacks, they always seem to have good young prospects (esp. at corner), but yeah the rest has been shit. I disagree 300% with having to get rid of Urlacher and Briggs. Those two, along with Tillman, are the main reason the Bears defense has ever been any good. Any turnaround has to involve them, there's no way they could find two other linebackers that good any time soon. Even if they dump the rest of the D (not Peppers, obviously), the presence of those veterans would allow them to make a more gentle shift to rebuilding rather than just starting from scratch. At this point, dumping Urlacher would be like the Cubs dumping Ernie Banks in the eyes of Chicago fans.

I don't see Lovie making it past this year, but honestly whatever coach they get is lucky, in the sense that he already will have a lot of young talent on offense, and has veteran leadership on defense. It'll be more like when Turner took over the Chargers (even though he hasn't done shit) than when Carroll took over the Seahawks.

How are the numbers misleading? Are you suggesting that McDaniels is a better coach than Shanahan? Shanahan turned Jake Plummer into a good QB. He may be shady on the defense side, but Shanahan is among tops in the league when it comes to offense. Cutler had INT problems in Denver and he has INT problems in Chicago. Orton has thrown touchdowns at the same pace as Cutler, but with fewer INTs. It's debatable whether the Bears upgraded their QB situation, but they definitely lost two first round picks in the process.

On Urlacher, you're sounding exactly the same way a Buccaneers friend of mine did when they dumped Derrick Brooks. Urlacher is old, 32 years of age, and won't be a part of any turnaround. Briggs is 30. Their time was 2006; they're a shadow of their former selves. You don't rebuild by keeping the same players.

I and a number of other Bears friends of mine don't think Lovie is the problem. The good players got old and the young players are bad. When you don't have players to work with, you always look like a bad coach. Comparing to the Chargers is a little strange to me. That Chargers roster was stacked when Schottenheimer left. Rivers was way ahead of Cutler, the offensive line was young (and good), and the defense was bulging with talent in its prime such as Merriman, Castillo, Philips, Jammer, Cromartie, etc. Their arrow was clearly pointed up and no coach was going to perform poorly with that.


Shanahan was more a running offense coach than a passing offense coach (if you don't believe me look at what he did even with Elway in Devner). McDaniels is a passing offense coach to the extreme (again as he proved with Brady in 07 and Cassel in 08). Also the line is the same personnel except older and more experienced. That makes a big fucking difference.


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 Post subject: Re: NFL.
PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 11:36 pm 
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Him too, and Idonije has been stepping up. Saying the Bears need to "start over" is a bit extreme.


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 Post subject: Re: NFL.
PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 9:07 am 
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corrections wrote:
Yeah no. First, passer rating is a lousy statistic. While Orton has had a great year this year a lot of it has to do with Josh McDaniels scheme that with better players resulted in the best NFL offense ever and even made Matt freaking Cassel look like a pro bowler. Denver still has that line that Cutler had which was the bigger deal than Marshall (Lloyd is just as talented btw he just was a headcase everywhere else). As far as the Bears Chris Williams was pretty fucking talented but he got hurt at the start of the year.

Yeah no. If you want to look at INTs, INTs say Orton was better. Their record was the same Orton's first season. You wanna look at TDs, Cutler was better by 4, whoop-de-do he threw 6 more INTs to get there. He threw about 700 more yards on 60 more pass attempts. Certainly doesn't justify the trade value whatsoever and if you just compare their stats in the same year, with Orton in Denver and Cutler in Chicago, Orton still looks like the better QB.

corrections wrote:
Shanahan was more a running offense coach than a passing offense coach (if you don't believe me look at what he did even with Elway in Devner). McDaniels is a passing offense coach to the extreme (again as he proved with Brady in 07 and Cassel in 08). Also the line is the same personnel except older and more experienced. That makes a big fucking difference.

Jake. Fucking. Plummer.

Your line point would hold if Tyler Polumbus and Zane Beadles were the same person as Ryan Harris, or J.D. Walton were the same person as Casey Wiegman, or Russ Hochstein were the same person as Ben Hamilton, but they aren't. You can hinge everything on Ryan Clady, but he was pretty much a BAMF from the moment he came into the league.


vankush wrote:
Urlacher and Briggs have both played out of their minds this year. They might not be in Chicago for another 10 years, but there's no reason to get rid of them, they can help keep the defense strong while the newbies learn their way. How did the Bucs do the year or two after they let Brooks go? One of the worst teams in the league, if I remember right.

Yeah I didn't really think too deeply about the Chargers analogy. I was just saying you wouldn't have to completely start from scratch and assume you'd only win 4 games the next year.

Lovie's a pretty good coach, but that means the Bears could never be better than "pretty good." He's a good coach for a winning team, but if the team struggles he's not the best motivator, and its his job to get the most out of his players, which isn't happening. I love Lovie, and I'm not trying to blame all the Bears woes on him, but the Bears have been stagnant for three years, and the only way to fix that is a culture change. If the head coach can't provide that, its time for a new coach.

Oh yeah the Bucs were terrible right after they let Brooks go. But it had to be done. Same thing with the Titans when they dumped Samari Rolle, Steve McNair, Derrick Mason, Eddie George, etc. all over the course of a season or two. Those guys could actually still play, and a few of them took the Ravens to the AFC Championship game, but the Titans had already held on to those guys for too long and had consecutive losing seasons as a result. Another example is the Chiefs, when they had the departure of Jared Allen, Trent Green, Damon Huard, Will Shields, Willie Roaf, Brian Waters, and Ty Law over a short period of time. They're in contention now. The Jaguars lost Jimmy Smith, Fred Taylor, Marcus Stroud, John Henderson, Paul Spicer, and Mike Peterson in a short period of time. They look like they're recovering now. Every team has to dump stars at some point.


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 Post subject: Re: NFL.
PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 4:44 pm 
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Jay Cutler is a bust, all of you need to face it lol. Well his line is bloody awful and his receivers suck... but he still isn't that good. He has the skill set to be a great QB, but he sucks.


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