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 Post subject: Re: NBA.
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 12:50 am 
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i think some criticism can be put on him for last year though.



but '07 there was literally nothing he could do. he carried that team to the finals in the first place despite being a huge underdog in the conference finals (and he put on one of the best performances in playoff history in that Pistons series). and then he got stuck trying to score on both Bruce Bowen and Tim Duncan at the same time in the finals because Duncan had nobody to worry about down low and they just focused all their attention on LeBron. not even Michael Jordan could have dominated Bowen and Duncan simultaneously without any help to draw any attention away from him.


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 Post subject: Re: NBA.
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 12:51 am 
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pave wrote:
corrections wrote:
zephead8 wrote:
you think jordan wasnt a team player? theres nothing that ive ever heard about him that would suggest that. also theres no way you can win 6 championships without good team cohesiveness no matter if you have the best player to ever step on the floor or not. i know he cared about getting those rings for himself but i just have never thought of lebron as a "team player" at least not to the extent of jordan.


:eh: Lebron is a big team player. All of his teammates always seem to like him and he's always willing to pass them the ball even in big moments (more than Jordan ever was). And Jordan's teams were cohesive yes. But they were cohesive because they were terrified of Jordan. Jordan has a singular desire to win. That desire to win was only for himself though. Jordan was so great because he didn't like losing personally.


yeah no doubt. whatever criticisms LeBron gets, whether deserved or not, "selfishness" has never been and never should be one of them. he's unselfish as hell. and his teams almost always have good off-the-court chemistry. aside from some rumors of prima donna behavior during the olympics, i've never really heard a bad LeBron story in terms of him as a person or teammate.


as for Jordan, its been said (and he's alluded to it as well) that he was very different during the second stint after he'd done the Minor League Baseball thing and saw how hard those guys worked and how hard it was to make it without supreme natural gifts. but during the first stint, while he was always loved by the media and fans and generally was seen as a good guy, he was demanding, hyper-competitive (well, he still is), selfish at times (some would argue he needed to be), vindictive, etc.

and if lebron's behavior is going to be criticized, let's not forget michael saying he wouldn't play for the dreamteam unless isaiah was left off, and basically forced their hand on that.


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 Post subject: Re: NBA.
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 12:52 am 
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was he the only one? i thought quite a few of the dream team voted no on Isiah.


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 Post subject: Re: NBA.
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 12:53 am 
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pave wrote:
i think some criticism can be put on him for last year though.

i agree. i responded cheaply to a cheap response from zep.


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 Post subject: Re: NBA.
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 12:53 am 
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pave wrote:
was he the only one? i thought quite a few of the dream team voted no on Isiah.

oh, i thought michael was the deciding factor though


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 Post subject: Re: NBA.
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:00 am 
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Jess wrote:
pave wrote:
was he the only one? i thought quite a few of the dream team voted no on Isiah.

oh, i thought michael was the deciding factor though


i just did a quick google search and it seems like he and Pippen (and possibly Malone) were both against Isiah being on the team. but according to Jordan, they came to him and told him Isiah wouldn't be there. of course, he might be distorting the truth. but it doesn't seem like it was his stipulation as much as it was their recruiting pitch to him. and i know there seemed to be some Magic/Isiah ill-feelings at the time (but i dont remember the specifics).


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 Post subject: Re: NBA.
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 2:11 am 
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One thing I will say is that by nearly all accounts, LeBron is very friendly and Michael was a huge dick.


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 Post subject: Re: NBA.
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 2:18 am 
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pave wrote:
Jess wrote:
pave wrote:
was he the only one? i thought quite a few of the dream team voted no on Isiah.

oh, i thought michael was the deciding factor though


i just did a quick google search and it seems like he and Pippen (and possibly Malone) were both against Isiah being on the team. but according to Jordan, they came to him and told him Isiah wouldn't be there. of course, he might be distorting the truth. but it doesn't seem like it was his stipulation as much as it was their recruiting pitch to him. and i know there seemed to be some Magic/Isiah ill-feelings at the time (but i dont remember the specifics).


Malone once leveled Thomas on a drive to the basket because Thomas had
shown up Stockton after he was picked for the team and Thomas was left off. I think Isiah had to get like 20 stitches or something.


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 Post subject: Re: NBA.
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 2:29 am 
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to be fair to Isiah, he was (at that time) without question about 3x better than Stockton and it had to piss him off that they picked Stockton over him.


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 Post subject: Re: NBA.
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 2:34 am 
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pave wrote:
to be fair to Isiah, he was (at that time) without question about 3x better than Stockton and it had to piss him off that they picked Stockton over him.


Thomas was never better than Stockton.

The fucking guy shot a low percentage and had tons of turnovers. Only average at best on defense too.

CAREER WIN SHARES
5. John Stockton* 207.70
133. Isiah Thomas* 80.69

1991-92 WIN SHARES
Stockton - 13.2
Thomas - 5.8

That stat has to be awfully fucked up if Thomas was 3 times better than Stockton.


Last edited by Bruce on Wed Jun 13, 2012 2:42 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: NBA.
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 2:40 am 
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yeah, "awfully fucked up" is exactly how i would describe it.


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 Post subject: Re: NBA.
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 3:09 am 
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Bruce wrote:
pave wrote:
to be fair to Isiah, he was (at that time) without question about 3x better than Stockton and it had to piss him off that they picked Stockton over him.


Thomas was never better than Stockton.

The fucking guy shot a low percentage and had tons of turnovers. Only average at best on defense too.

CAREER WIN SHARES
5. John Stockton* 207.70
133. Isiah Thomas* 80.69

1991-92 WIN SHARES
Stockton - 13.2
Thomas - 5.8

That stat has to be awfully fucked up if Thomas was 3 times better than Stockton.


not that it really matters, but the team wasn't picked after the '92 season.


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 Post subject: Re: NBA.
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 3:44 am 
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oh and what are you talking about with turnovers? Stockton's turnover percentage career average is higher than Isiah's highest year (he had 14 seasons over 20% while Isiah's highest was 19.5)...


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 Post subject: Re: NBA.
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 11:42 am 
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pave wrote:
Jess wrote:
pave wrote:
was he the only one? i thought quite a few of the dream team voted no on Isiah.

oh, i thought michael was the deciding factor though


i just did a quick google search and it seems like he and Pippen (and possibly Malone) were both against Isiah being on the team. but according to Jordan, they came to him and told him Isiah wouldn't be there. of course, he might be distorting the truth. but it doesn't seem like it was his stipulation as much as it was their recruiting pitch to him. and i know there seemed to be some Magic/Isiah ill-feelings at the time (but i dont remember the specifics).

sounds reasonable. i think what might have happened is obviously more than michael didn't want him, but knowing michael was the least expendable player and also didn't want isaiah he was tasked with being the one to say, "it's either me or him," because the choice would be a no brainer. anyways, i just wanted to point out that michael, and whoever else conspired to prevent isaiah from playing on the dreamteam weren't paradigms of selflessness and model behavior.


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 Post subject: Re: NBA.
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:04 pm 
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pave wrote:
oh and what are you talking about with turnovers? Stockton's turnover percentage career average is higher than Isiah's highest year (he had 14 seasons over 20% while Isiah's highest was 19.5)...


For their careers, Thomas turned the ball over 16% more often.

TURNOVERS per 36 MINUTES
Thomas - 3.7
Stockton - 3.2


TURNOVER % is an ESTIMATE of turnovers per 100 plays. What the fuck does that mean?


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