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 Post subject: NBA.
PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 2:05 pm 
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Discuss the NBA and basketball in here.


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 Post subject: Re: NBA.
PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 2:43 pm 
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the league is pretty much like last year's: same name (Jordan isn't the best) and password (hendrix), and it has mostly the same settings: it's head-to-head, with playoffs at the end, and same 8 categories count... but i did i expand the number of utility players to 3 and bench players to 4)

draft time is Saturday, October 23rd at 10am east coast time (1 pm pacific time)... if you would like me to move the date, let me know, though i'd prefer it to be on that weekend (after the preseason ends but before season starts) and sometime during the morning or afternoon, which i'm guessing is the best time for most people

the more people sign up, the more interesting and competitive it will be... you can invite your online or real life nerd friends, too... the more the merrier (and i can adjust the number of teams accordingly, though the actual number better be even)

instructions
go here:
http://basketball.fantasysports.yahoo.com/
click on "Join a league"
then click "Join Custom"
enter the info (League ID#: 35615, password: hendrix)
follow the rest of the instructions (pick a team name, etc.)

OH AND MARK THE DRAFT TIME ON YOUR CALENDAR!!!!!
of course i'll remind everyone personally again before the draft, but you wouldn't believe how many people miss it for whatever reason (last year only three people, godly as they are, showed up)


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 Post subject: Re: NBA.
PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 3:36 am 
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preseason makes me think breakout stars (or standout rookies) are going to include Beasley and Cousins and that Turner might have a tougher time than we thought he was going to have adjusting to the NBA.


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 Post subject: Re: NBA.
PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2010 1:09 am 
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corrections wrote:
pave wrote:
corrections wrote:
You really are crazy. Have you watched any bball this year?


yep. and i watched last year when Kobe got a ring and Lebron got bounced before the finals. and the year before that when Kobe was in the finals and Lebron couldnt get passed second round. and the year before that when Lebron looked like a punk against Bowen and Duncan and it wasnt even competitive (to be fair, he killed Detroit though).

if he gets his, i'll be the first one to give him his due. but three years of people talking about him as the god of basketball with nothing to show for it? and now people talking about the defending champ as if he's not worthy of being mentioned in the same category? why? cause his stats arent as impressive? he's Kobe Bryant! its not laughable at all to say he's as good as Lebron. he's not some 37 year old washout. he's a top 10 player in nba history in the prime of his career who won a championship last year and has the second most dominate team in the league (while playing in a deeper conference)... a guy who, in his so-called "off year", scored what- 2 points less a game? and just because he plays on a deeper team and doesnt handle the ball every play, he doesnt get the assist stats... i'll give it to Lebron that he's a better finisher and a better rebounder... but outside of that? shooting? defending? post-play? playing off the ball? thats not me nit-picking at skill-set... i just cant believe everyone here has taken Kobe out of the discussion because LeBron scored an extra couple points a game and got a few more regular season wins. and if Lebron loses in the playoffs again, then what? everybody gonna blame his team again?


You realize that this is the same point in Jordan's career where people were making the same arguments for Magic and Bird right as still being better (round about 90). First off Kobe is not in his prime anymore. A championship does not magically gild a player's abilities. Has Lebron ever played on a team with anyone who deserves to be in the same sentence as Shaq in his prime or Gasol? Hell no he hasn't. He carried his team by himself to play a much better San Antonio team. The next year he almost beat the NBA champion Celtics by himself (scoring margin was dead even in the series) in the 2nd round but lost despite scoring 45 points in the 7th game in Boston (where Boston lost what 2 games that year?). Then last year he finally had more help (but not great help) but lost to the Magic because it was the one team that was a terrible matchup for them (they had no one to guard Howard). Despite that he put up perhaps the best performance any player has ever put up going through 3 rounds. What was Kobe doing when he was in his prime without Gasol and Shaq? Leading teams that didn't make the playoffs or washed out in the 1st round all three years. So really you

I love that you bring up the San Antonio series because it brings up another bone of contention I have with your argument. Tim Duncan is the best player of Bryant's generation. He won 4 titles as the best player on his team and he's carried a team on a consistent high run. Sure he had help to be sure but on that 03 team where he had a Tony Parker who the team actually considered trading for Kidd because he wasn't playing very good he really carried a team by himself. And he did it while being utterly dominant defensively and an incredible force on the glass. He didn't score as much but he is far more efficient (something that sets Kobe's game apart from Duncan's and Lebron's). I will really fight hard on this one because Duncan doesn't get nearly enough of his due from his generation just because Michael Jordan shifted the definition of "best basketball player in the league" such that it can only mean "best wing player who's game most resembles Jordan's."

But even leaving that aside your arguments on performance this year are just silly. The Lakers aren't the second most dominant team in the league. They aren't even 2nd in wins. Scoring margin is a much better indicator of dominance and they are way behind the Cavs (even though they basically rested their last 5 games) and Orlando and behind Utah, San Antonio, and Phoenix in their own conference. So no his team is not even close to the most dominant and has been pedestrian since the all star break (before the break all of those West teams were behind the Lakers in margin which means they've all been playing much better than the Lakers since then). And you know what his teams problem is? Offense. Their offense is pretty average which is pretty embarrassing on a team with Kobe and Gasol. Their defense is what is keeping them afloat but Kobe may be about to find out how hard it is to win with one dead spot (in this case point guard) on the floor.

As far as your specific points on performance GTFO with that. Kobe has a usage rate that is tied for 4th in the league and barely below Lebrons. He uses 30.5% of his teams possessions per 30 minutes tied with Carmelo and barely behind Lebron's 32.2% (number 2) so it isn't like Kobe isn't getting touches. Kobe still jacks up more shots per game than Lebron in slightly less minutes per game so the assist difference is more what Kobe chooses to do with his possessions than him not getting to touch the ball as much.

Now lets deal with your argument on how points are scored. First, I love that you characterized my position as looking at Lebron's scoring to determine that he was better just because he's scored 2 points per game more. That isn't at all what I'm saying. Let's take an in depth look at scoring. You concede finishing, so we don't have to talk about that. Then you talk about shooting (by which I take it you mean jump shots) and post play leaving out importantly shot creation, foul drawing, and overall scoring efficiency.

Let's start with shooting and take 3 pointers because those are the easiest to deal with. This season Lebron is taking 5 3s per game and Kobe is taking 4. This season Lebron is shooting .333 and Kobe is shooting .329. So they are basically the same with Lebron making slightly more and making slightly more. Its a bit of a down year for Bryant (career .340) and a bit of an up year for Lebron (career .329) but neither are exactly sharpshooters and none are in the top 100 shooting the 3( though their threes tend to be more contested which is a point I'll get to in shot creation). Next we'll deal with foul shooting (the other easy one). This one is clearly Kobe's. He's a .811 FT shooter (a bit down on his .838 career) this year on 7.4 attempts per game. Lebron is .767 (up on his career .742) on 10.4 attempts per game. No disputing that Kobe is the FT king.

Dealing with 2 pointers is tougher. First, let's consider their 2 point percentage (an exceedingly flawed statistic for reasons I'll get to in a second). Lebron has a .560 2 point percentage. Lebron takes about 15 two pointers per game while Kobe takes 17.4. Kobe makes .487% of his twos. Lebron is 13th in the league in this metric. Kobe is 97th. Of course the problem with this when it comes to determining jump shooting ability is that it takes into account inside shots as well as jump shots and Lebron both shoots more of those and makes them at a better rate. That is where advanced metrics from 82 games help. The problem is that they don't have any metrics for this year up yet other than the clutch metrics (something I'll get to in detail later). So we'll take last year and examine it. Overall Lebron took 64% of his shots as jump shots last year while Kobe took 79% of his shots as jump shots. Separating out the 3 point jump shots it is 40% for Lebron and 59% for Kobe. Lebron shot .375 on Two Point Jump shots while Bryant shot .439 so a solid win on ability to shoot two point jumpers for Bryant. Of course 31 players in the league shot better than Bryant on 2 point jump shots last year including legit stars like Ray Allen, Nash, Chris Paul, Dirk, Gasol, Deron Williams, Yao, Bosh Stoudamire, and Paul Pierce (who draw comparable defensive attention on their respective teams). So Bryant wasn't even in the top 10 among stars shooting the two point jumper. On 3 pointers last year Bryant shot .351 and Lebron shot .344 and they made up 19% and 23% of their repertoires respectively. So again there wasn't a big disparity last year on 3s. But again Kobe finished behind 92 other players including Nash, Durant, Kevin Martin, Billups, Ray Allen, Pierce, Vince Carter, Brandon Roy, Paul, and Dirk. So another 10 stars he finished behind and 5 finished ahead of him on both lists so it isn't like he is near the top of the league in shooting any kind of jump shot. But yes I'll go ahead and concede 2 point jumpers and FTs to Bryant while 3 point shooting is a wash.

Next lets deal with your post play argument. Yes Kobe has developed quite a nice post game the past couple of years. Lebron has started developing one but it is not as good in an absolute sense. However, I'm struggling very hard to understand why this fact matters. Let's take a look at their success on close shots again using last years stats (i.e. non jumpers) that aren't dunks or tip ins (since I don't want to belabor the finishing differences). We'll look at these shots because this is where the post game is relevant. Lebron took 27% of his shots from this range while Kobe takes 18%. Lebron shot .648 from this range. Kobe shot .599. This is a significant difference in close shooting efficiency. If we throw back in dunks and look at how they do overall inside (this is the only way we can get an overall judge of where they stand in reference to other players in the league) Lebron took 35% of his shots from this range while Kobe took 21%. Lebron is second in the league with a .717 shooting percentage in this range. Kobe was 19th with a .655. Ahead of Kobe were Durant, Wade, and Stoudamire (in addition to Lebron). So Kobe’s post game makes him a hell of a good player league wide inside but the problem is Lebron is pretty fucking unstoppable inside. He doesn’t have that great of a post game yet for the same reason Jordan didn’t have a great post game when he was Lebron’s age. He doesn’t need it to score inside and can score inside more effectively without it. What Kobe does posting up is impressive but basically irrelevant to comparing their scoring abilities and respective merits.
Now let’s look at the scoring categories you left out. We’ll start with shot creation ability. Before I start with this discussion I think we can both agree that Kobe and Lebron get roughly equal defensive attention particularly when they have the ball in their hands. Now on a bare numerical look Lebron takes 20.1 shots per game, while Kobe takes 21.5 this year. Of course what matters is not the ability just to create shots but to create high percentage shots. Lebron makes .503 of his shots while Kobe makes .456 but that doesn’t tell us all that much either. There are a couple of ways we could look at this (again I’ll be using 82 games.com stats from last year).
First, we could look at the number of each player’s made baskets that come off an assist. Overall 31.1% of Lebron’s baskets come off of assists. 36.7% of Kobe’s baskets come off assists so Kobe is more dependent on the great pass to get his looks. Let’s look at it more specifically by shot type though. Both players most common shot is the 2 point jump shot. Lebron takes 40% of his shots like this, while Bryant gets 59% of his shots from this range. Only 21% of James baskets from this range come off assists, while Bryant gets 30% of his off assists. James is 14th in the league for this type of shot, while Bryant is 37th. Both are behind Devin Harris, Paul, Nash, and Billups while Bryant is behind Roy, Wade, Parker, Williams, Joe Johnson, and Pierce. The second most common shot for Lebron is the close shot (doesn’t include dunks) at 27%, while for Kobe the percentage is 17% (3rd most common shot for him). Lebron gets an assist on 29% of his baskets in this range, while Kobe gets it on 32%. Tough to rank these because 82 games doesn’t have a list for assist percentage on close shots. The 3rd most common shot for Lebron is the 3 pointer at 24%, while for Kobe this is 20% (his 2nd most common shot). Lebron has an assist percentage of 42% good for 3rd in the league while Kobe is at 64% good for 14th in the league. Both are behind Wade and Nash while Kobe is behind Williams, Baron Davis, Harris, Billups and Paul. One more word on this for the league there are only 5 players with an assist percentage below 50 on three pointers. There are only 10 with a percentage below 60. That means Lebron excels at creating 3 point shots on his own. Next are dunks which are 8% and 4% for Lebron and Bryant respectively. Lebron gets helping hands on 59% of his dunks while for Kobe it is 51%. I don’t know this for sure but it seems likely to me that most players are likely to have fairly high assist rates on dunks but there is no way to confirm this. What does emerge from this picture though is that Kobe is more dependent on the assist to score and does less creation of his own. Baskets that are assisted are more likely to be either open or at least less contested shots and rely less on what the player creates on his own with the ball (or course this doesn’t matter what you do off the ball to get open for an easy look).
Now let’s look at what type of shot each creates. Kobe’s game is heavily dependent on the 2 point jumper which makes up almost 60% of his shots. As already indicated he doesn’t shoot that shot particularly well. Lebron’s most common shot is a 2 point jumper as well. He also doesn’t shoot it very well but he only takes 4 out of every 10 shots from this range. His best shots skill wise are inside, 3 point jumper, 2 point jumper. He takes 35% of his shots from inside where he is exceptionally effective (not that much lower than the 40% he takes on the 2 point jumper). He takes 23% of his shots from 3 point where he is next most effective. This is as compared to Bryant’s 19% from where he is next most effective. Bryant does take more inside shots than 3s but not by too much and again the vast majority of his shots are from the zone he is least effective in. The expected value of Lebron on all of these shots (2 point jumper, 3 point jumper, inside shot) is .75 points, 1.03, 1.43. For Kobe it is .88, 1.05, 1.31. For both players the best shots in terms of expectation value are in descending order inside, 3 point jump shot, 2 point jump shot. If both players shot an equal number of shots from each distance Lebron would have an expectation of 1.07 per FGA, while Kobe would have one of 1.08. So in theory Kobe should be neck and neck with Lebron in expectation value. However, because of the shots they actually get off a Lebron FGA is worth 1.04 while a Kobe FGA is worth .99. Presumably Kobe doesn’t take a lot of jump shots because he is a dumb player. I think he does it because a two point jumper is the easiest basket to get off and he struggles to get inside now (also why he has developed a post game) compared to his prime. This leads to Lebron getting 20.7 points per game from the field and Kobe getting 20.7 (remember he takes a shot more per game). And Lebron makes the basket while getting the and 1 97 times (more than any other player) and much more than Bryant’s 58.

So in terms of shot creation it seems clear that Kobe takes more per game. Lebron is better at creating higher percentage looks for himself. Kobe’s superior shooting and additional shot and a half per game allowed him to score slightly more points per game from the field last year (I emphasize the allowed because I already know his 3 point% is lower this year). If we subbed in the 3 point percentages from this year the expected value of a 3 pointer would be 1 for Lebron and .99 for Kobe. That would drop Kobe’s expected value per FGA to .98 and Lebron’s would fall to 1.03 so they would sit in about the same position ASSUMING Kobe’s ratios remained the same. I think this is highly unlikely because Kobe’s 2 point percentage has dropped to .487 this year from .496 last year (suggesting either more jump shots or worse shooting on two point jump shots) and Lebron’s has risen from .535 to .560 which means he’s probably taking more inside shots or making more 2 point jumpers. So if Kobe could even be called marginally better on shot creation last year (I’d submit not) he certainly can’t this year.
Now let’s move on to drawing fouls a significant part of what great players do. FTs are the easiest way to score in the game. For a guy who shoots like Kobe drawing a shooting foul on the typical play (a 2 pointer) has an expectation value of 1.62 (more than the expectation value for any Kobe shot). It also has the added bonus of putting the other teams defenders in trouble making them more cautious on defense and gets your team into the bonus quicker, which increases the expectation value for the team as a whole. For a guy like Lebron its worth 1.53 in the typical situation. So for both players the best thing they can do on any given play offensively for their team is draw a foul. For everyone but Howard and Shaq like foul shooters (who also are dominant inside) drawing the foul is the most successful play. Lebron gets 10.2 foul shots per game. Kobe gets 7.4. Lebron adds 7.82 points per game by doing this. Kobe only adds 6. The extra points Lebron adds doing this is worth more than the expectation value of two Kobe jump shots. Kobe used to draw fouls at a Lebron like rate but no longer. Lebron draws a foul 18.6% of the time when he takes a shot. Kobe does 12% of the time. On top of that because Lebron is such a superb finisher he gets many more and 1s by making the shot as well. This is a hugely valuable aspect of the game of basketball you decided to overlook.
Finally, let’s address scoring efficiency. Scoring efficiency is valuable because it means there are more possession available for your teammates to score. Just looking at the True shooting percentage (which takes into account the extra value of 3 pointers and accounts for FT) Lebron has a .604 (good for 23rd in the league), while Bryant has a .545 (good for 138 placing him just behind Al Harrington and just ahead of Chase Budinger). I could list the innumerable stars he’s behind in that category but it would take a long ass time. Suffice to say it is at least 14. We could also look at the fact that Lebron requires 1.2 fewer field goal attempts to score 2.7 more points than Kobe. I really don’t think the efficiency point can be doubted.
So that’s scoring. You’ve conceded rebounds so I won’t address that. I will address turnovers and passing though. You claim that Lebron handling the ball more is the only reason he gets more assists. I already showed why through usage rate they really don’t use any fewer of their team’s possessions. But let’s go ahead and look at their performance passing (again using last year). Last year Lebron had 587 total assists. Kobe had 399. Of Lebron’s (ordering the assists in descending order of value) 232 were 3 point assists, 48 were dunk assists, 133 were close assists, and 174 were jump assists. For Kobe it was 116, 75, 110, 98. That is roughly 40%, 8%, 23%, 30% for Lebron and 29%, 18%, 28%, and 25% for Kobe. As you can see Lebron was the best at getting the most valuable assist look for his team (the wide open 3) while Kobe was only better at getting the dunk assist (and considering the size of his front line compared to Lebron’s last year that’s not all that unexpected). So I don’t get your claim that Kobe’s passing is better than Lebron’s. Additionally, let’s look at assist to bad pass ratio. Lebron had 113 passing TOs. Kobe had 100. That means Lebron had 5.2 assists for every bad pass while Kobe had 4. Kobe handles the ball less (or passes it less anyway) but he is also more likely to turn it over on a pass verses getting an assist. As far as turnovers their ratios are virtually the same with Lebron being slightly better at 9.4 compared to Kobe’s 9.7. In terms of ball handling TOs last year Kobe had 91 ball handling TOs compared to 93 for Lebron basically the same. Lebron gets more offensive fouls (31) while Kobe had 16. Lebron does handle the ball more making his hands rating better than Kobe’s marginally (22.8 to 21.8) despite more TOs.
Defensively I’m going to defer to John Hollinger and David Thorpe and post some stuff from them on Kobe, Lebron, and Wade.
“Second team: Kobe Bryant, L.A. Lakers (-4.29)
Bryant still turns it on and off at this end, but the past couple years the "on" switch has been illuminated more consistently. Like a lot of top offensive players he doesn't spend a lot of time checking the opponents' top scoring threat, but when he's committed, he's still as good as they come at this end thanks to his legendary competitiveness and underrated muscle.
“First team: Dwyane Wade, Miami (+1.19)
Miami is fourth in defensive efficiency this season. Fourth. Look at that roster and give me one good reason the Heat rank that highly. I'll give you the answer: Because they have a 6-4 guard who can block shots at the rim, snuff out opposing plays from the weak side and generally wreak havoc off the ball. Wade used to cancel out his prolific play by gambling too much, but now he is picking his spots and as a result has become the league's best freelancer. Wade is good on the ball, too, but his best work comes when he can defend a secondary option and roam.”
“Second team: LeBron James, Cleveland (+0.46)
James' on-court versus off-court numbers suffer in part because Cleveland's other two aces, Delonte West and Anderson Varejao, are usually on the court when he isn't. But he's been an equally big reason the Cavs are eighth in defensive efficiency despite working in the plodding Shaquille O'Neal and suffering several injuries along the way. His half-court help defense still could use improvement, but he's become a very good on-ball defender and a veritable human eraser against opponent fast breaks because of his chase-down speed. And as for posting him up, forget about it. You'll have better luck trying to back down an 18-wheeler.”
From Thorpe (a very good scout type)
On ball defense
“An athletic freak entering his prime, LeBron is more active when defending the primary action. He applies far more ball pressure than Kobe and generally is more aggressive with his quick feet. But he does this at some risk to the Cavs' defense, sometimes not forcing his man in any direction because he's too caught up in the one-on-one battle or getting beat to the middle by using poor close-out techniques. However, with LeBron, it's a worthwhile risk. His sheer size and physical gifts create havoc for the player with the ball, often resulting in a forced shot or a turnover.
Kobe, on the other hand, currently reminds me of the smartest and most veteran player in a very competitive pickup game. He's efficient with his movements, and his technique is the best in the league. The Lakers want him to play the top side on every wing catch, keeping the ball on one side of the floor. It's textbook strategy employed by most good defensive teams.
Kobe does not worry much about getting to the baseline slower because he often has two 7-footers available as helpers, and the baseline serves as an extra defender. He also often guards the least threatening offensive wing in the first half and plays off him (see the "secondary defender" breakdown below), allowing his man room to shoot or make a play. A defense aims to force the opponent into taking the worst shot possible, and inviting its poorest offensive guard to shoot or drive is an excellent result. So Kobe's actions are in line with the team's strategies.
I have no doubt that in five to seven years, LeBron will play exactly how Kobe is playing now. And there is currently not much difference between the two in terms of overall results. But years ago, when Kobe was ballhawking a lot more, he was considered one of the top defenders in basketball. That extra pressure makes a difference. LeBron is doing that now, so he takes this category.”
Off Ball defense:
“Kobe and LeBron both benefit from playing with solid if not excellent defenders who allow them to roam around and muck up the offensive actions of their opponents.
LeBron has a sixth sense for where the ball is headed and will look to cut the action short. And if the offensive player does not account for him, LeBron will go after his shot. He's not blocking as many shots this season, but he still disrupts a lot of plays by adding that one extra defender to the play side of the floor.
But so does Kobe, who seemingly knows what's going to happen before some of the offensive players do. This is due in large part to his now-legendary ability to watch hours of game tape.
Although Kobe sometimes makes the fundamental mistake of turning his back to the guy he's guarding and watching the ball on the opposite wing or post, he always knows exactly where to go when it's time to locate and close out his man. And because he's often guarding the weaker of the other team's guards, he gets to play like a safety in football.
If his man is left open and chooses to shoot the ball, the Lakers call that a "win" on that possession. This also allows Kobe to make plays on the ball, a reason he's stealing the ball at least twice per game. If he does not steal the ball, at least he does what LeBron does so well, which is foul up the primary actions of the opposing offense.
Both players make a big impact in help defense, but with Kobe third in the league in steals, that demonstrates an added ability at the moment to turn defense into offense.”
I think this confirms my perspective, which is that both are top tier defenders and there isn’t much separating them now.
Let’s go to one final category that tends to be a Kobe fan favorite. Clutch performance. Even those who acknowledge that Lebron is better often say “But I’d want Kobe taking the last shot because he’s more clutch.” Simply put this is not the case. 82 games defines clutch situations as 4th quarter or OT with 5 minutes or less left with no team ahead by more than 5 points. 2007-2008 was the closes between them but Lebron produced 56 points per 48 minutes in clutch compared to Kobe’s 51.8. Lebron shot better at .475 as opposed to .448 for Kobe. Lebron took 3 more shots per 48. He also outrebounded him 9.6 to 8.1, assists 8.2 to 6.0, TO 3.6 to 4.2, Blocks 2.2 to .7, and steals 2.9 to .4. The only categories Kobe won were FT and 3 point shooting percentage .385 to .309 and .840 to .790 and FT attempts. Overall Lebron’s team had a +31 per 48 minutes with him on the floor while Kobe’s was a +11. They were tied at 23 in percentage of baskets assisted.
Last year Kobe barely scored more last year at 56.7 to 55.9. However he got this point advantage by taking 8 more shots per 48 in clutch time. The only categories Bryant won were FT% (92 to 85), TOs (3.0 to 4.8), and assisted baskets (15% to 20%). Every other category was won by Lebron FG% (.556 to .457) 3 Point (.421 to .400), Reb (14.3 to 8.4), Assist (12.6 to 5.7), Block (1.7 to 0), Steals (3.5 to 1.0). All told this made Lebron’s team +45 with him during clutch as opposed to Kobe’s +34. Kobe got barely more points but he did it by hoisting 8 more shots in the clutch.
Finally, this year is was a fucking joke between the two. Lebron scored an unbelievable 65.5 points per 48 compared to Kobe’s 50.1 (Lebron took 3 more shots per 48). Kobe won two categories: FT shooting (.900 to .810) and TO (3.1 to 4.4). Lebron won everything else: FG% (.490 to .432) 3 point (.371 to .346), FTA (25.9 to 16.6), Assisted Basket (16% to 19%), Reb (17.2 to 7.3), Assist (7.2 to 3.9), Block (2.0 to 0), and Steals (2.8 to 1.9). All this led to Lebron’s team being +31, while Kobe’s was only +10.
But, some might protest, Kobe is still the most clutch because he hits the most game winners and is the best shooting them. Well no actually. From 2003-Feb 4th, 2009 including playoffs if you look at game winners (defined as 24 seconds or less left in game, team with ball is either tied or down 1 to 2 points) Kobe doesn’t come out well at all. League wide the percentage on these shots is .298 so they are ridiculously tough shots for everyone. Kobe Bryant is number 4 with 14 in makes behind Lebron James (17), Vince Carter (16), and Ray Allen (15). More importantly while those 3 shoot .340, .314, and .385 respectively Kobe shoots a terrible .250. He also has the most turnovers with 5. He does have 12 FT out of 15 which beats Lebron in percentage (he has 14 out of 20). James also has 6 game winning assists better than everyone but Pierce who has 9. Moreover, among any player with 10 or more, Kobe has by far the worst percentage. Every one of the 13 players with him except Joe Johnson is over .300 and Joe Johnson is .267. The best is Carmelo at .481 (absurdly good). Obviously this doesn’t take his 6 game winners this year into account but even if those are the only ones he took this year (not true) he still only improves to .323, which is still worse than Lebron (although he’d have more makes).
All of these numbers merely confirm what I’ve observed with my own eyes. When I watch the two play I see an exceptional hall of famer (Kobe) and a once in a generation talent (Lebron). Lebron hasn’t put together the resume that Kobe has yet but there is no question that Lebron is the better player right now and in all reality it really hasn’t been close this year and it wasn’t all that close the past two years. I don’t even want to get into advanced metrics like PER because I don’t really need them. Suffice it to say Lebron’s last two years are better than any two year stretch any player has ever put up including Jordan (and he put up amazing PER numbers). All you have with Kobe is really appeals to championships and some unspecific appeals to the categories that Kobe is better at as if being able to check off “better than” in the most number of basketball skills makes someone a better player. I do not see how someone could watch the game and look at the evidence and say its close.


needed this saved. and on the first page on this thread. for everyone to see upon first visit.


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 Post subject: Re: NBA.
PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2010 1:22 am 
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good, then lets get started on reaching page 2


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 Post subject: Re: NBA.
PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2010 1:25 am 
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420 Bro wrote:
the league is pretty much like last year's: same name (Jordan isn't the best) and password (hendrix), and it has mostly the same settings: it's head-to-head, with playoffs at the end, and same 8 categories count... but i did i expand the number of utility players to 3 and bench players to 4)

draft time is Saturday, October 23rd at 10am east coast time (1 pm pacific time)... if you would like me to move the date, let me know, though i'd prefer it to be on that weekend (after the preseason ends but before season starts) and sometime during the morning or afternoon, which i'm guessing is the best time for most people

the more people sign up, the more interesting and competitive it will be... you can invite your online or real life nerd friends, too... the more the merrier (and i can adjust the number of teams accordingly, though the actual number better be even)

instructions
go here:
http://basketball.fantasysports.yahoo.com/
click on "Join a league"
then click "Join Custom"
enter the info (League ID#: 35615, password: hendrix)
follow the rest of the instructions (pick a team name, etc.)

OH AND MARK THE DRAFT TIME ON YOUR CALENDAR!!!!!
of course i'll remind everyone personally again before the draft, but you wouldn't believe how many people miss it for whatever reason (last year only three people, godly as they are, showed up)

joined this as "Dirty Meatwads". Who is everyone else?


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 Post subject: Re: NBA.
PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2010 1:41 am 
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I think these injuries are going to be good for Miami. It'll let players develop a chemistry, so they can function without the superstars (and Bosh).


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 Post subject: Re: NBA.
PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2010 12:25 pm 
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welcome, gatz and timewarne. if anyone else wants to join, you have a little more than a week left.


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 Post subject: Re: NBA.
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 12:14 am 
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pgm wrote:
I think these injuries are going to be good for Miami. It'll let players develop a chemistry, so they can function without the superstars (and Bosh).


I don't think that's good for them because without them they are a fucked team. They need chemistry with the stars. Really it's the Peyton Manning theory of team building. If he goes down we're fucked.


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 Post subject: Re: NBA.
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 12:19 am 
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Yeah Pave how did that clinching game 7 look for Kobe's play? That said I wrote all of that before Lebron wussed out of a real challenge and went to where he could get the greatest assemblage of talent. Kobe wouldn't have done that and neither would Jordan and I respect them for that. Lebron is still the most physically gifted player I've seen since Jordan and everything I wrote there is true (especially about the asinine argument about specific skill set's that Kobe does better in x arbitrary number of basketball skills than Lebron taking into account nothing on the magnitude of skills. Because honestly if you want to play this game then Dirk checks off more boxes than Kobe as he's a better shooter from any position on the floor you care to name.). But anyhow I respect Kobe much more and I love the guys game. And now I cheer for him more than Lebron (although not as much as Durant).


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 Post subject: Re: NBA.
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 1:09 am 
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corrections wrote:
pgm wrote:
I think these injuries are going to be good for Miami. It'll let players develop a chemistry, so they can function without the superstars (and Bosh).


I don't think that's good for them because without them they are a fucked team. They need chemistry with the stars. Really it's the Peyton Manning theory of team building. If he goes down we're fucked.


You're a Colts fan? I always assumed you were a Cowboys fan or something.

The stars need chemistry, but I think it'll be better introducing them one at a time. It's the preseason and most of these injuries are not serious. Teach the scrubs how to swim, so they won't just ask for LeBron or Wade to bail them out of every situation.


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 Post subject: Re: NBA.
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 8:46 am 
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pgm wrote:
corrections wrote:
pgm wrote:
I think these injuries are going to be good for Miami. It'll let players develop a chemistry, so they can function without the superstars (and Bosh).


I don't think that's good for them because without them they are a fucked team. They need chemistry with the stars. Really it's the Peyton Manning theory of team building. If he goes down we're fucked.


You're a Colts fan? I always assumed you were a Cowboys fan or something.

The stars need chemistry, but I think it'll be better introducing them one at a time. It's the preseason and most of these injuries are not serious. Teach the scrubs how to swim, so they won't just ask for LeBron or Wade to bail them out of every situation.


Scrubs are going to do that anyway though.

And while I like the Colts more than just about any other team because of Peyton Manning I'm still a Cowboys fan. Just using the analogy for why the Colts have someone as lousy as Curtis Painter as their backup.


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 Post subject: Re: NBA.
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 1:58 pm 
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the fantasy league has 11 teams at the moment... we need one new member (or 3)


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 Post subject: Re: NBA.
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 2:02 pm 
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Posts: 552
gatz wrote:
420 Bro wrote:
the league is pretty much like last year's: same name (Jordan isn't the best) and password (hendrix), and it has mostly the same settings: it's head-to-head, with playoffs at the end, and same 8 categories count... but i did i expand the number of utility players to 3 and bench players to 4)

draft time is Saturday, October 23rd at 10am east coast time (1 pm pacific time)... if you would like me to move the date, let me know, though i'd prefer it to be on that weekend (after the preseason ends but before season starts) and sometime during the morning or afternoon, which i'm guessing is the best time for most people

the more people sign up, the more interesting and competitive it will be... you can invite your online or real life nerd friends, too... the more the merrier (and i can adjust the number of teams accordingly, though the actual number better be even)

instructions
go here:
http://basketball.fantasysports.yahoo.com/
click on "Join a league"
then click "Join Custom"
enter the info (League ID#: 35615, password: hendrix)
follow the rest of the instructions (pick a team name, etc.)

OH AND MARK THE DRAFT TIME ON YOUR CALENDAR!!!!!
of course i'll remind everyone personally again before the draft, but you wouldn't believe how many people miss it for whatever reason (last year only three people, godly as they are, showed up)

joined this as "Dirty Meatwads". Who is everyone else?


isn't that 7 am west coast time? also i'm the 69ers


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 Post subject: Re: NBA.
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 2:51 pm 
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west coast of what? where are you located?
if you mean united states, then pacific time = american west coast time.

1pm pacific/west coast
2pm rocky mountain
3pm mideastern
4pm atlantic/east coast


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