season 4 of mad men is the best season IMO, and season 3 has some good moments.

Most definitely agreed with that.

If we're talking FX dramas The Shield and Justified are definitely a cut above SOA, whose only really great season (out of 4) is the second. Justified of course has Tim Olyphant in the lead; SOA also employs a ridiculously large number of Deadwood alums in guest roles, as well as Dayton Callie (Charlie Utter) in the main cast. Of course Walton Goggins came to Justified from the Shield and Kurt Sutter, creator of SOA, got his start as a Shield writer (and performing as one of its more fucked-up villains). So there's a lot of interplay there.

just watched the pilot of that show Girls. was not a fan. I couldn't relate because all the characters were lame and I am a baller.

Hatfield & McCoys. Just, Hatfields and McCoys.

yeah, Girls isn't very good. I saw the most recent episode because it's on after Veep (I think) and it was alright but not something i'd want to watch again.

I think Girls is pretty good. Why don't you guys like it?

It's very hard to like the characters so if you need to like them to enjoy a half hour show (which is more common than needing to like the mains in a drama) you'll find it alienating. They are indeed spoiled, sheltered, sometimes miserably out of touch people. But if you can get past that sort of ingrained sitcom expectation what remains is a bracingly honest and frequently hilarious show that even manages to make three of its four characters, if not likable, at least relatable enough to be somewhat sympathetic given the stories they're handed (although the british girl is a disgusting person and I fucking hate her).

Veep is better.

Yeah, I just felt like it was an extra half hour of time spent with people I try not to spend a lot of time with in real life. I dunno though, I might give it a few more episodes. It could be interesting to see if the characters grow at all. But as it stands, I think I would only appreciate it more if the writer(s?) made it more clear that you aren't supposed to sympathize with the characters at all and are just supposed to laugh at how unlikable they are. It's probably important for me to re-emphasize that this judgement is so far only based on the pilot.

It definitely gets substantially funnier; it also gets easier to like or at least sympathize with Hannah, if not the others. It might be that Lena Dunham is only good at writing her own character but there might be something deeper happening there.

I'll also say that if you've ever wanted to see the mom from Freaks and Geeks get naked, here's your show.

that scene alone makes Girls worth watching

I think Shoshannah has become fairly sympathetic while the latest episode did a lot for Adam (the second best character on the show next to Hannah) in that regard as well. It's been hard caring about Marnie or Jessa though. Especially Jessa.

First three episodes of Girls are great. Can't speak to the rest.

The difference there I think is Marnie is a girl who's being shitty in a way that is familiar, that just about every long-term relationship (even the successful ones that end with cake and babies) has had a moment in which one or both parties has felt at least the urge/temptation to be shitty in exactly that way. Whereas Jessa is being shitty in a way that is most reminiscent not of the average person's experience but of the Manic Pixie Dream Girl archetype - but, critically, the dark side of MPDGs, the "be spontaneous and individualistic without actually being of value to anybody or anything" side - which makes her both unsympathetic AND unrelatable, which in turn makes her the devil. Looking at her that way makes me respect the work put into the character even as I fucking loathe her and hope she gets hit by a truck in the season finale.

It remains excellent. My favourite episode might have been the latest one to be honest.


Also monga, I pretty much agree.