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 Post subject: Kurt Cobain
PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 10:09 pm 
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Back in 1991 I wasn’t having any fun, until my roommate said c’mon and put a brand new record on, it had a baby on it, he was naked on it, and then I heard the chords that broke the chains I had upon me.










Last edited by Echoes on Tue Mar 15, 2011 11:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Kurt Cobain
PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 10:54 pm 
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Shuure wrote:
Dimebag Darrel vs. Kurt Cobain:

Innovation: Dimebag. Cobain innovated nothing related to guitarplaying whereas Dimebag's whammy work and use of harmonics was innovative to metal and rock as a whole.

Respect from other guitarists: Dimebag. You hear people praise Cobain and Nirvana, but not so much in the guitar community and in any case I've come across, never because of the guitarplaying. Dimebag was well respected. Even when people didn't care for Pantera's music, most would agree that his playing was good. Numerous bands and guitarists have dedicated songs, even made original tracks, in honor of him, aswell as covering Pantera.

Influence: Dimebag's very influential within metal, having influence on old-timers and contemporaries like Kerry King, Scott Ian, Zakk Wylde and Dino Cazares, aswell as newer guys from bands like Lamb of God, Trivium and Killswitch Engage (nevermind your opinion of the bands). As for styles, he was instrumental in the creation of groove metal as a subgenre of thrash aswell as influencing nu metal and the newer style of metalcore. Cobain took the style The Pixies had already created, with no noticeable differences in terms of guitarplaying as far as I know, and made it reach the mainstream. If there hadn't been countless contemporaries directly influenced by The Pixies and Cobain himself clearly stating where he was influenced, he might've had a stronger case in this criteria, but even so, I'd say Dimebag's influence as a creator trumphs that of Cobain as a mediator to the mainstream.

Legendary status: As a rock musician, Cobain. As a rock guitarist, Dimebag. Due to reasons already pointed out.

Importance in shaping the world of rock guitar: As already pointed out, rock guitar hasn't been critically influenced by Cobain. If he hadn't come around, The Pixies still would have, and apart from the slow verse/heavy chorus dynamic between guitar/drums/vocals (which they weren't even the first ones to do, but have been credited with, as far as I know) I don't exactly what you'd point at with Cobain that makes him a quintessential guitarist to rock history. Without Dimebag's playing, chances are entire sub-genres would be different today.

Playing abilities: Dimebag. If he doesn't take all those sub categories of this criteria, he definately takes most of them and some by a lot. Technically there's no question, while not being a terribly versatile guitarist I'd say he even takes Cobain there. Improvisation, something neither do a whole lot of to my recollection, though Dime sometimes just had to "let it rip". Creativity to Dime, through anything from his riffing employing bends, slides, harmonics, tremolo picking, blablablab, to his soloing with the distinctive wails. Cobain had the creativity to.. play power chords with very little, as far as I know, thought as to making the notes ring in a distinctive way by employing varied techniques or whatnot. Live I guess would be a tie, seeing as both have stellar performances and showed enthusiasm in their playing, but whereas Cobain's guitarwork could be played by a one-armed monkey, there are guys like the Licklibrary dude who still can't figure out some of the finer touches of Dimebag's solos (and even riffs, but that was just a sad instructional). Dimebag's guitarplaying and especially his tone is quite distinctive and I guess you could call it original (I haven't heard any other guitarist use such a gainy tone as Dime has on Far Beyond and Great Souther Trendkill prior to those). Off the top of my head, I couldn't even begin to describe Cobain's guitarplaying or tone apart from it being simple and fitting it's purpose, but nothing more, cause it's not distinctive enough.

So that's my semi-biased take on a Dimebag/Cobain breakdown. So I'd like to see where you disagree seeing as Cobain is miles ahead right now.


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 Post subject: Re: Kurt Cobain
PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 10:58 pm 
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Echoes wrote:
and then I heard the chords that broke the chains I had upon me.


"IT'S MORE THAN A FEELING!"


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 Post subject: Re: Kurt Cobain
PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 11:02 pm 
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Hey, does are great lyrics by Weezer and I don´t care what anybody thinks!


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 Post subject: Re: Kurt Cobain
PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 9:36 am 
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aight, i suppose this was to be expected. i deleted the last 6 or so posts. let's to try tackle the topic at hand without any extra bullshit, whoever is up to it.


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 Post subject: Re: Kurt Cobain
PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 10:59 am 
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I couldn’t watch the posts George erased.

If they were related to Weezer´s lyrics I was obviously joking.

:parrot:


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 Post subject: Re: Kurt Cobain
PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 11:06 am 
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Now, can some one please explain to me what "Dimebag's whammy work and use of harmonics was innovative to metal and rock as a whole" means?

Where can I see that influence? How the use of harmonics on heavy metal is innovative? Didn’t Randy Rhoads used a lot of harmonics several years before Dimebag?


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 Post subject: Re: Kurt Cobain
PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 11:16 am 
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Echoes wrote:
Now, can some one please explain to me what "Dimebag's whammy work and use of harmonics was innovative to metal and rock as a whole" means?

Where can I see that influence? How the use of harmonics on heavy metal is innovative? Didn’t Randy Rhoads used a lot of harmonics several years before Dimebag?


I'll explain it to you in 15 minutes, a moment.


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 Post subject: Re: Kurt Cobain
PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 11:28 am 
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Echoes,
Why did you start a new thread and move the Dimebag/Cobain argument here? That discussion belongs back in your thread.


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 Post subject: Re: Kurt Cobain
PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 12:16 pm 
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vankush wrote:
Echoes,
Why did you start a new thread and move the Dimebag/Cobain argument here? That discussion belongs back in your thread.


I believe that Kurt Cobain is the greatest rock guitarists from the last 20 years so I think he deserves a thread.

Also, the main objective of the alternative list is to compare guitarists from the last 20 years vs. guitarists from all other eras. I am still waiting for your opinion about that list with regards to the position of Radiohead, Bellamy and Pearl Jam. I want to know why is so crazy to have all of those guitarists within the top 100.


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 Post subject: Re: Kurt Cobain
PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 12:27 pm 
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Location: Matthew McConaughey has won the Oscar for Best Actor in-- "You think you know me..." Shit.
That made even less sense than I thought it would.


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 Post subject: Re: Kurt Cobain
PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 1:06 pm 
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Echoes wrote:
vankush wrote:
Echoes,
Why did you start a new thread and move the Dimebag/Cobain argument here? That discussion belongs back in your thread.


I believe that Kurt Cobain is the greatest rock guitarists from the last 20 years so I think he deserves a thread.

He can have is own thread, but discussions about his placement should be kept in the list threads (as they are with all guitarists).


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 Post subject: Re: Kurt Cobain
PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 2:15 pm 
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Echoes wrote:
Now, can some one please explain to me what "Dimebag's whammy work and use of harmonics was innovative to metal and rock as a whole" means?
Where can I see that influence? How the use of harmonics on heavy metal is innovative? Didn’t Randy Rhoads used a lot of harmonics several years before Dimebag?


Dimebag Darrell's guitar tone, playing style and especially the use of harmonics and whammy have been REALLY widely imitated. Check out almost any modern heavy metal band out there, the influences are everywhere.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ub0Z-XPmYCg Avenged Sevenfold have often cited Pantera as one of their biggest influences and it is pretty clear from their style. Synyster Gates is blatantly influenced by Darrell.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqfj4cqufNA One good example of player who has been hugely influenced by Darrell (and Wylde) is Euge Valovirta from Godsplague. At 1:04 (and especially later parts) you will hear lots of significane to Darrell's riffing and playing style in general
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3h6QtA7nr7k Same guitarist, another song (you can clearly hear that they are really much influenced by Pantera, especially the vocalist and Valovirta).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BAiDKOqfvc Another band with Pantera- and Darrell-influences, you'll notice them pretty fast.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNjCZrsH25Q Another band and guitarist heavily influenced by Pantera and Darrell's fantastic playing: listen to the heavy riffing, squels and the soloing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TgGaNJw0coA Same band tributing Pantera.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fninRnmVRHw AND another Pantera-influenced band, the riffs and vocals sound just like aping the band.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuO522W2DJQ Tribute to Pantera and especially Dimebag Darrell (He has own festival called Dimefest, for fuck's sake!), fantastic vocals by Leo Jimenez.

There are literally hundreds of bands who are influenced by Pantera and Darrell. Seriously, Pantera were one of the biggest bands of 90's and Darrell was a guitar legend.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimebag_Darrell#Tributes List of some tributes for Darrell. Enough?





Image

"Cheers man, I win."

- Dimebag Darrell


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 Post subject: Re: Kurt Cobain
PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 4:13 pm 
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:metal:

Lots of love for Dimebag.


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 Post subject: Re: Kurt Cobain
PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 4:22 pm 
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Then put him above Cobain where he deserves to be.


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