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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Cartoons
PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 7:47 am 
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beaverteeth92 wrote:
Evangelion and Cowboy Bebop should be switched, as Evangelion has the much larger cult following and overall influence on the mecha genre.


Cowboy Bebop has more cross-over appeal, though. And the mecha genre is a small part of Japanese animation.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Cartoons
PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 1:49 pm 
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Eva's influence on animation as a whole (western and eastern) is far more than Bebop's.

And saying that mecha is a "small" part of Japanese animation is like saying science fiction is a small part of American cinema.
And even then, some of the popular and/or acclaimed shows from Japan are directly, if not painfully, influenced by NGE (RahXephon, Eureka 7, Code Geass, Gurren Lagann, FLCL, for just a few).


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Cartoons
PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 5:50 pm 
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Sherick wrote:
Eva's influence on animation as a whole (western and eastern) is far more than Bebop's.


How is it? More importantly how is it more influential than the Gundam or Macross franchises?

Sherick wrote:
And saying that mecha is a "small" part of Japanese animation is like saying science fiction is a small part of American cinema.


It is, comparatively.

Sherick wrote:
And even then, some of the popular and/or acclaimed shows from Japan are directly, if not painfully, influenced by NGE (RahXephon, Eureka 7, Code Geass, Gurren Lagann, FLCL, for just a few).


So too are many shows influenced by Cowboy Bebop: Samurai Champloo, Michiko to Hatchin, Baccano!, Durarara!! and The Boondocks for example.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Cartoons
PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 8:56 pm 
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Quote:
How is it? More importantly how is it more influential than the Gundam or Macross franchises?


More importantly what does that matter? NGE is far higher than they are, it's Bebop that is being compared.

Quote:
It is, comparatively.


Yes, but that doesn't dissipate the importance of massively influential science fiction films.

Quote:
So too are many shows influenced by Cowboy Bebop: Samurai Champloo, Michiko to Hatchin, Baccano!, Durarara!! and The Boondocks for example.


None of those shows (except Boondocks) are as popular or acclaimed as the ones I mentioned. Where's that crossover appeal?
Plus the influence isn't quite as direct or exclusive. Okay maybe with Champloo, but that show was created as a clone of Bebop in the first place.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Cartoons
PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 10:52 pm 
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Forgotten Son wrote:
Sherick wrote:
Eva's influence on animation as a whole (western and eastern) is far more than Bebop's.


How is it? More importantly how is it more influential than the Gundam or Macross franchises?

Sherick wrote:
And saying that mecha is a "small" part of Japanese animation is like saying science fiction is a small part of American cinema.


It is, comparatively.

Sherick wrote:
And even then, some of the popular and/or acclaimed shows from Japan are directly, if not painfully, influenced by NGE (RahXephon, Eureka 7, Code Geass, Gurren Lagann, FLCL, for just a few).


So too are many shows influenced by Cowboy Bebop: Samurai Champloo, Michiko to Hatchin, Baccano!, Durarara!! and The Boondocks for example.



Ever compare the looks of mechas from before 1995 to mechas afterwards? The newer ones look surprisingly more Eva-like. The reason Evangelion is so influential is because it showed what animation was truly capable of. It showed that, yes, it can be used for kickass fight scenes, but it can also be used to provide intense character development and psychological profiles, as to the point where there's serious scholarly analysis. There's a reason that people call Evangelion a deconstruction. After Evangelion, more and more animators began to develop their characters more. This shows in virtually EVERY animated series with a continuous plot that appeared since.

Yes, Bebop was influential, but Evangelion literally changed the face of the animation industry.

And don't forget that Samurai Champloo was made by the same guy who did Bebop.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Cartoons
PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 6:44 pm 
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Sherick wrote:
NGE is far higher than they are, it's Bebop that is being compared.


But why is NGE so much higher than Macross or Gundam? The reason I was given for Bebop being lower than NGE was its cult popularity, which betrays a shallow knowledge of otaku culture. Evangelion isn't even the greatest mecha anime.

Sherick wrote:
Yes, but that doesn't dissipate the importance of massively influential science fiction films.


No it doesn't, but in the case of massively influential science fiction films on a general film list I'd expect them to have broader influence. Azumanga Daioh has massive influence on slice of life high school comedy anime, Berserk has massive influence on fantasy anime etc. That is not sufficient reason for any of them to be higher than Cowboy Bebop on the list.

Sherick wrote:
None of those shows (except Boondocks) are as popular or acclaimed as the ones I mentioned. Where's that crossover appeal?


Baccano, Samurai Champloo and Durarara!! less popular and critically acclaimed than RahXephon or Eureka 7. I don't think so son.

Sherick wrote:
Plus the influence isn't quite as direct or exclusive. Okay maybe with Champloo, but that show was created as a clone of Bebop in the first place.


How is the NGE influence on, say, Code Geass or FLCL greater than the influence of Bebop on Baccano, Durarara!!, Michiko to Hatchin? Code Geass owes more to Death Note and camp space opera than Eva, for instance.

beaverteeth92 wrote:
Ever compare the looks of mechas from before 1995 to mechas afterwards? The newer ones look surprisingly more Eva-like.


Yes and no. It's certainly had influence on the development of mecha design, but it's not as though all post-Evangelion mecha designs owe a huge debt of influence to NGE. Take Code Geass, for instance. The mecha in that look more like something out of Patlabor of Gundam than Eva.

beaverteeth92 wrote:
The reason Evangelion is so influential is because it showed what animation was truly capable of. It showed that, yes, it can be used for kickass fight scenes, but it can also be used to provide intense character development and psychological profiles, as to the point where there's serious scholarly analysis. There's a reason that people call Evangelion a deconstruction. After Evangelion, more and more animators began to develop their characters more. This shows in virtually EVERY animated series with a continuous plot that appeared since.


I totally reject the notion that character development was lacking in pre-Evangelion anime. Legend of Galactic Heroes, considered to have the strongest plot and character development of any anime, started in 1988.

Even if we accepted your claim as fact, you'd be hard-pressed to pin the shift toward increased character development on just NGE, as 1995 also saw the release of great pieces of art like Ghosts in the Shell and Memories. And there was no shortage of psychological pretense and bizarre symbolism prior to Eva's release. Watch Angel's Egg and tell me how revolutionary Evangelion is.

beaverteeth92 wrote:
Yes, Bebop was influential, but Evangelion literally changed the face of the animation industry.


I reject this idea applied to Japanese animation, let alone animation as a global whole. It certainly had a sizeable impact on mecha anime and even had some influence on anime unrelated to giant robots, like Serial Experiments Lain, but you really are overstating its importance.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Cartoons
PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 7:29 pm 
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Machine Head wrote:
Are Spongebob and Family Guy really both Top 10 material?


I'd say Spongebob has a pretty strong case for a top 10 placement, but I think Family Guy's current placement makes a lot more sense than a top 10 placement. Family guy has to score almost nothing on innovation...


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Cartoons
PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 8:28 pm 
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Machine Head wrote:
Are Spongebob and Family Guy really both Top 10 material?

Family Guy definitely not. It really didn't bring anything new to the art of animation at all, just used techniques South Park and The Simpsons used in moderation to excess instead. Of course I guess you could say the same thing of Spongebob and all the Nicktoons of the 90s.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Cartoons
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 1:13 am 
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I'd say Ren and Stimpy was a pretty original & influential cartoon of the 90's, you can see it's influence in Spongebob, and it paved the way for other satirical shows like Beavis & Butthead and South Park.. I'd definitely like to see it move up


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Cartoons
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 1:30 am 
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Forgotten Son wrote:
Sherick wrote:
NGE is far higher than they are, it's Bebop that is being compared.


But why is NGE so much higher than Macross or Gundam? The reason I was given for Bebop being lower than NGE was its cult popularity, which betrays a shallow knowledge of otaku culture. Evangelion isn't even the greatest mecha anime.

Sherick wrote:
Yes, but that doesn't dissipate the importance of massively influential science fiction films.


No it doesn't, but in the case of massively influential science fiction films on a general film list I'd expect them to have broader influence. Azumanga Daioh has massive influence on slice of life high school comedy anime, Berserk has massive influence on fantasy anime etc. That is not sufficient reason for any of them to be higher than Cowboy Bebop on the list.

Sherick wrote:
None of those shows (except Boondocks) are as popular or acclaimed as the ones I mentioned. Where's that crossover appeal?


Baccano, Samurai Champloo and Durarara!! less popular and critically acclaimed than RahXephon or Eureka 7. I don't think so son.

Sherick wrote:
Plus the influence isn't quite as direct or exclusive. Okay maybe with Champloo, but that show was created as a clone of Bebop in the first place.


How is the NGE influence on, say, Code Geass or FLCL greater than the influence of Bebop on Baccano, Durarara!!, Michiko to Hatchin? Code Geass owes more to Death Note and camp space opera than Eva, for instance.

beaverteeth92 wrote:
Ever compare the looks of mechas from before 1995 to mechas afterwards? The newer ones look surprisingly more Eva-like.


Yes and no. It's certainly had influence on the development of mecha design, but it's not as though all post-Evangelion mecha designs owe a huge debt of influence to NGE. Take Code Geass, for instance. The mecha in that look more like something out of Patlabor of Gundam than Eva.

beaverteeth92 wrote:
The reason Evangelion is so influential is because it showed what animation was truly capable of. It showed that, yes, it can be used for kickass fight scenes, but it can also be used to provide intense character development and psychological profiles, as to the point where there's serious scholarly analysis. There's a reason that people call Evangelion a deconstruction. After Evangelion, more and more animators began to develop their characters more. This shows in virtually EVERY animated series with a continuous plot that appeared since.


I totally reject the notion that character development was lacking in pre-Evangelion anime. Legend of Galactic Heroes, considered to have the strongest plot and character development of any anime, started in 1988.

Even if we accepted your claim as fact, you'd be hard-pressed to pin the shift toward increased character development on just NGE, as 1995 also saw the release of great pieces of art like Ghosts in the Shell and Memories. And there was no shortage of psychological pretense and bizarre symbolism prior to Eva's release. Watch Angel's Egg and tell me how revolutionary Evangelion is.

beaverteeth92 wrote:
Yes, Bebop was influential, but Evangelion literally changed the face of the animation industry.


I reject this idea applied to Japanese animation, let alone animation as a global whole. It certainly had a sizeable impact on mecha anime and even had some influence on anime unrelated to giant robots, like Serial Experiments Lain, but you really are overstating its importance.



Maybe I am, but what I was trying to get at is that it's a really big deal both in Japan and in the United States, and should definitely have higher placement than Bebop.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Cartoons
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 7:59 pm 
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beaverteeth92 wrote:
Maybe I am, but what I was trying to get at is that it's a really big deal both in Japan and in the United States, and should definitely have higher placement than Bebop.


This is a point I can agree with, but I don't see how it applies more to Evangelion than Cowboy Bebop, or indeed anime that aren't even on this list.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Cartoons
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 11:24 pm 
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Which anime series not currently on the list are important enough to make the Top 100? Again, Eastern World cartoons aren't really my forte. Recommendations?


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Cartoons
PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 4:37 pm 
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though im speaking from a subcontinental point of view, im surprised to see Scooby doo that low ...


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Cartoons
PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 4:50 pm 
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Great update, glad this is getting updated. :thumb: First thoughts are that Spongebob Squarepants, Family Guy, Animaniacs and Doug look too high. I'm not sure Family Guy should be ahead of King of the Hill.

I also think we should bring up the Simpsons vs Disney debate as I personally think The Simpsons should be ahead of Disney, but don't really have much to base it on other than just instinct, would be interested to hear the reasoning behind it.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Cartoons
PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 10:11 pm 
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Forgotten Son wrote:
beaverteeth92 wrote:
Maybe I am, but what I was trying to get at is that it's a really big deal both in Japan and in the United States, and should definitely have higher placement than Bebop.


This is a point I can agree with, but I don't see how it applies more to Evangelion than Cowboy Bebop, or indeed anime that aren't even on this list.


It's because Evangelion has the international cult following. Bebop is popular, but Evangelion has a THEME PARK SECTION, was rated by Japan's Agency for Cultural Affairs as the greatest anime of all time, a rabid group of fans that analyze everything, and is significantly more critically acclaimed because of the issues it deals with and the unique imagery and use of storytelling that the series uses.

I love both series, but Evangelion is better.


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