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 Post subject: Re: state your unpopular opinions as facts
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 8:50 pm 
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Eric Wood wrote:
pauldrach wrote:
corrections wrote:
Eric Wood wrote:

I think it's a dominant trend of popular music. Pop music is, by definition, music which is supported by a broad base of paying customers. Therefore, by definition, pop music doesn't even exist without a middle class to pay for it. And therefore, it doesn't make sense to study pop music history from a stylistic or social viewpoint but not from an economic viewpoint.


I was not arguing for ignoring an economic viewpoint. As far as your definition of pop-music that definition sounds a bit dubious to me. What makes you think a middle class must exist to support pop music?

There are different possible definitions for "pop music". Eric's version would be a short term for "popular music", so all music that is popular with a broad mainstream audience. You could also define "pop music" as encompassing all music that evolved from pop cultural influences (as opposed to high cultural ones), which then would include music that is not actually all that popular, and even exclude music that may be very popular. By this second definition it definitely makes sense to study pop music from a stylistic or social viewpoint without looking at economic factors.


First of all "middle class" was too specific.

How can you define pop music as music coming from pop culture influences? Isn't that just circular logic? Where did the pop culture come from?

corrections, how would you define "pop music"?


It isn't a circular definition that he's giving so much as reductive (i.e. not high cultural). The reason I think you definition fails is that it ignores popular music in most of music history. While this would often be called folk music I think there is certain stuff that was regionally very popular and did not require a middle class to consume it or indeed that the artist make very much at all. This music was literally popular but did not require a middle class. Conversely the more useful definition in my view is the stylistic one. Music emerging not from higher cultural trends (so called art music) but from the people generally (folk music) and those things that are derivative from it. The popular music you speak of is music that comes from these roots (and very specifically southern poor black roots and to a lesser extent southern poor white roots). This stuff is popular music regardless of whether it is actually popular in and of itself. In order for it to be widely disseminated I'll grant you a middle class is required (or at least a class with disposable income).


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 Post subject: Re: state your unpopular opinions as facts
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 8:52 pm 
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Tudwell wrote:
dreamcoil wrote:
Tudwell wrote:
RE: the Bob Dylan/lyrics discussion a few pages back, Bob Dylan has a mastery of the English language never seen before or since in the history of rock music (or probably music as a whole). Like, it's never even been approached.


townes van zandt does the same job without the wordiness.


I'll have to check him out. Heard the name, but don't think I've listened to more than a song or two.


Which I think is the problem with your claim.


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 Post subject: Re: state your unpopular opinions as facts
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 1:37 am 
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Location: God doesn't love us because we're good, He makes us good because He loves us.
The Stone Roses s/t is insanely boring, amelodic elevator music.


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 Post subject: Re: state your unpopular opinions as facts
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 2:20 am 
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You're really bad at this thread, Cruz.


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 Post subject: Re: state your unpopular opinions as facts
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 5:30 am 
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bill evans > isaac newton


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 Post subject: Re: state your unpopular opinions as facts
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 5:36 am 
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The lack of booze is having an adverse effect on Cruz's mental faculties.


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 Post subject: Re: state your unpopular opinions as facts
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 9:14 am 
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rockvirtuoso wrote:
bill evans > isaac newton


i don't think this is an unpopular opinion, at least i've never hung out with anyone that prefers to talk about newton instead of evans


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 Post subject: Re: state your unpopular opinions as facts
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 9:25 am 
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Hendrix isn't the best.


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 Post subject: Re: state your unpopular opinions as facts
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 1:13 pm 
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Here's one. Music liked by the masses and 'top dogs' of DDD isnt automatically good music.

Case in point : Tangerine Dream's Phaedra. Screw that album for making me give it more tries than I've ever given an album !!


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 Post subject: Re: state your unpopular opinions as facts
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 1:24 pm 
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That was the album that broke me out of my "every song needs a bitchin' guitar solo" phase.


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 Post subject: Re: state your unpopular opinions as facts
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 2:45 pm 
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Since I grew up in India with Bollywood music, thankfully I've never had that. Also, that almost translates you to never having heard a pop album or liked a pop album till then ?


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 Post subject: Re: state your unpopular opinions as facts
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 3:47 pm 
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Nah, it was just a two year phase that began when I heard Led Zeppelin for the first time at age 13. The phase was over around age 15. Before I was 13 I was into pop and hip hop and rock and other stuff, I just kind of stopped listening to all of it (except rock) when I was 13.

A lot of people on DDD speak about this musical "evolution" they supposedly go through, where their taste follows a linear path closer to some mystical point of musical enlightenment. But I don't think that's necessarily true. I guess hopefully you have a better understanding of how music works as time goes on, but taste is not necessarily a linear path. I can say without a doubt that I was more open-minded with my taste as a 10 year old than a 14 year old.


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 Post subject: Re: state your unpopular opinions as facts
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 5:55 pm 
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Well ten year olds aren't ALL retards unlike 14 year olds


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 Post subject: Re: state your unpopular opinions as facts
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 8:27 pm 
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batman wrote:
Nah, it was just a two year phase that began when I heard Led Zeppelin for the first time at age 13. The phase was over around age 15. Before I was 13 I was into pop and hip hop and rock and other stuff, I just kind of stopped listening to all of it (except rock) when I was 13.

A lot of people on DDD speak about this musical "evolution" they supposedly go through, where their taste follows a linear path closer to some mystical point of musical enlightenment. But I don't think that's necessarily true. I guess hopefully you have a better understanding of how music works as time goes on, but taste is not necessarily a linear path. I can say without a doubt that I was more open-minded with my taste as a 10 year old than a 14 year old.


For sure. I'm more embarrassed of myself as a music fan as a 14 year old than I am as a 8 year old when I asked for and received No Strings Attached by Nsync for Christmas - not because of the music I listened to but because of the way I acted when I thought Metallica were the height of music. I was a cunt.


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 Post subject: Re: state your unpopular opinions as facts
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 8:48 pm 
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batman wrote:
That was the album that broke me out of my "every song needs a bitchin' guitar solo" phase.


Ah I remember that phase. I don't know where it came from, really, because I was a fan of classic rock before I adopted that frame of mind and I didn't really notice the guitar solos. It seemed inconsistently applied too, given that Electric Six were one of my favourite bands at the time and the majority of their songs were sans solos. I properly snapped out of in late '06 early '07 when I started listening to bands like Stars.

I still loves me a bitchin' guitar solo, though.


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