actually it looks like you've missed the boat completely

Well why don't you explain how instead of being a smug bastard.

?

the album and the link i posted is by a guy called waka flocka flame. he has acknowledged many a time that he does not know how to rap. and you know, he really doesn't for some part of it. but it's this earnestness, personality and the complete 'get stupid' aesthetic of his music that makes it a lot of fun to listen to or play at a party.

if he was doing the exact same thing with the exact same music but with 'conscious' lyrics, he would be one of the worst rappers of all time. and his music would not make any sense. he would suck.

you're debating something that is completely off the point. the point is not whether it is street shit music or high art erudite music. the point is people listen to it, and i'm telling you why without resorting to a reason that demeans the artist or short-sells the listener base.

Then you're off point of the original discussion. I'm not saying he should add conscious lyrics. He is what he is. The point of fact is him knowing what he is doesn't in and off itself make the music better. If I put out something that I know sucks it does not suddenly transform it into being good. That people listen to it might be a reason that it is good but the artist's assessment of the music's quality is irrelevant. Making Mitch's point wrong.

Okay, but what if Flocka started writing "conscious" lyrics as a purposeful attempt to make his music worse? And he was successful in making his music worse? And he knew it? Then he would, as Mitch said, suck and know he sucks. And he wouldn't magically become good.

I think the point you're trying to make is separate from this whole debate. You're trying to prove that unsophisticated, simple music that falls out of a music scholar's definition of "good music" still holds value, and there's reason to consider it good. I don't think anyone would disagree with that. But this whole debate started (I think) when Mitch said that self-awareness is a get-out-of-jail free card for bad music. Take this track for example, which I made in roughly 5 minutes yesterday, as a conscious attempt to make the worst possible song I could make. It's still not good. I rest my case!

That song was amazing. Point not proven.

I never said sucking and knowing you suck makes you good, I don't know where corrections got that from. All I said is that it makes you not suck. Artists who are aware they are making something bad are almost always better that artists who have no idea.

For example, a Weird Al parody of a crappy Nickelback song would change nothing but the lyrics, the song is essentially still the same, and the new set of lyrics may not be a huge improvement over the originals. But by being self-aware, the song is superior to the unironic original.

No it doesn't make it not suck either. It has nothing to do with it. And what you're describing is entirely different. The Weird Al song probably wouldn't suck (although it might still) precisely because it uses a genre convention to do something interesting. But just being aware in and of itself is meaningless.

why's it matter which one's better if neither one is good? neither would be worth listening to.

But one makes me sad for the fate of humanity, and one amuses me for its self-conscious adherence to terrible conventions. The music itself may be roughly the same, but the experience of it is completely different.

Yeah I think I get what you're saying now. I, however, am more amused by bad music with no self awareness. I was one of they many people who totally lost interest in Die Antwoord when it was revealed that the act was indeed a satire. Or another example, hearing Asher Roth's "I Love College" for the first time made me laugh way harder than any Weird Al song ever has. "I am champiawwwwn at beer pawwwwng, allen iversawwwwn, hakeem olajuwaaaan." If he wasn't so serious about it, it wouldn't have been as funny. At this point though I'm just arguing a point nobody's even brought up yet.

I also think that creating a product that is self-consciously trashy is different than making something straight up bad. Cabin Fever is one of my favorite films, and I would argue that Eli Roth didn't set out to make a movie that was so bad that people would enjoy it. He was dealing with low culture for sure, but it was executed perfectly.

Holy shit

HOLY FUCK !!!!!!

Meh, I've only recently learned to ignore songs like that. I heard the song, it wasn't good, but spreading the word for it is only going to make it more popular. If somebody likes it, he/she is free to do so. I don't really care.