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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Jazz Guitarists
PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 12:22 am 
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Rick, do you think that we could move Frank Gambale over somewhere in between 27-40? I mean Allan Holdsworth and Frank Gambale are almost just as important so I think they should be moved closer together; although maybe Allan should be ranked higher since he has been in the business longer.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Jazz Guitarists
PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 12:08 pm 
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izkool wrote:
Rick, do you think that we could move Frank Gambale over somewhere in between 27-40? I mean Allan Holdsworth and Frank Gambale are almost just as important so I think they should be moved closer together; although maybe Allan should be ranked higher since he has been in the business longer.



Moved him up to 55.............best I can do at the present.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Jazz Guitarists
PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 5:27 pm 
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Rick wrote:
izkool wrote:
Rick, do you think that we could move Frank Gambale over somewhere in between 27-40? I mean Allan Holdsworth and Frank Gambale are almost just as important so I think they should be moved closer together; although maybe Allan should be ranked higher since he has been in the business longer.



Moved him up to 55.............best I can do at the present.


Howcome it hasn't changed on the website? When I checked the site it still had Frank at 62. Why don't you want him up by Holdsworth?


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Jazz Guitarists
PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 8:35 pm 
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izkool wrote:
Rick wrote:
izkool wrote:
Rick, do you think that we could move Frank Gambale over somewhere in between 27-40? I mean Allan Holdsworth and Frank Gambale are almost just as important so I think they should be moved closer together; although maybe Allan should be ranked higher since he has been in the business longer.



Moved him up to 55.............best I can do at the present.


How come it hasn't changed on the website?
Because I just haven't done it yet. Patience

Why don't you want him up by Holdsworth?
Considering the criteria I think Allan scores higher overall.


fyi.........I didn't say Gambale couldn't move up further, I said at present. Patience, he did move.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Jazz Guitarists
PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 11:36 pm 
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George wrote:
so i see, but even if i cast aside my stubbornness and accept jazz-fusion and bebop as equally legitimate subgenres within jazz, my issue is you giving way more emphasis to fusion than to bebop...

if we look at the top 25:
11 of them are fusion guys: metheny, j-mac, holdsworth, coryell, frisell, sco, carlton, dimeola, stern, abercrombie, and ritenour
and only 5 are bebop: pass, burrell, breau, ellis, and farlow

(george benson qualifies for both lists so he doesn't affect the balance)

in the top 50, the breakdown is basically this:
9 swing: django, christian, lang, lonnie johnson, van eps, moore, les paul, atkins, barnes
12 bebop: pass, ellis, farlow, benson, breau, burrell, bruno, raney, garland, diorio, kessel, roberts
3 cool: hall, johnny smith, bickert
4 hard bop: wes, grant green, martino, conti
18 fusion: metheny, j-mac, allan, coryell, frisell, sco, carlton, al, stern, abercrombie, benson, ritenour, connors, golub, towner, freeman, henderson, szabo

other: greene, taylor, byrd, sharrock, bailey

in the second half of the list, the disproportion is even more staggering: i counted 24 fusion players, and only 2 bebop (bean and wakenius). even if we expand bop to include bebop, cool, hard bop, and post-bop, i still count only 16 guys (even including bireli lagrene, counting him as bebop rather than swing, though he qualifies as both).



Metheny is not just fusion; he has done progressive jazz, jazz-pop, contemporary jazz, and post-bop. Allan Holdsworth has done accoustic/mainstream jazz (The Things You See, Sunbird) as well as free jazz. Larry Coryell does post-bop and free jazz. I'm not even sure if Frisell does fusion; but he is more known for contemporary jazz. Frisell's website even states that he doesn't do fusion. Scofield does post-bop, soul jazz, and jazz funk. Carlton does a ton of smooth jazz and contemporary jazz work. Al D. Meola does latin jazz and gypsy jazz. Mike Stern does contemporary jazz and post-bop. Abercrombie does progressive jazz and post-bop. Ritenour does post-bop, jazz-pop, pop, smooth and contemporary jazz. Connors does jazz and post-bop. Szabo did crossover jazz and post-bop. So a lot of these guitarists are not just fusion. Some of them actually do other forms of jazz even more so than fusion.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Jazz Guitarists
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 2:18 pm 
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where do you get these things?? do you read this misinformation off wikipedia?

dimeola doing gypsy jazz?? i've never heard him do it. both his technique and conception are decidedly non-gypsy-jazz. yes he does "latin jazz", but there is no such thing as "latin jazz guitar" and his basic style remains mostly the same.

when has holdsworth done mainstream jazz?
i know he has done acoustic work but that is not a style of guitar and he does the same thing on acoustic as he does on electric (and btw his album with gordon beck is my favorite work of his)

what is "progressive jazz guitar" in metheny's case? what is progressive jazz, anyway? what is contemporary jazz? what is jazz-pop guitar? what techniques or concepts are associated with it?
if you're not sure whether frisell does fusion or not, you should actually check out his discography. along with scofield and metheny he is regarded as the leading jazz fusion guitarist of his generation, and most of his work i've heard from his ecm days til now is fusion.

when i categorized guys, i was aware that i pigeonholed them into one thing, but my point was to bring out a general trend in what i was seeing in the list... and what i did was very roughly divide jazz guitar into its main eras, and see how many guys fall into each one. i'm aware that most if not all of them are very eclectic musicians, so you're preaching to the choir.
(and i don't know why you only commented on the guys included in fusion; many non-fusion guitarists occupied more than one niche in guitar also)


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Jazz Guitarists
PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 10:19 am 
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A violation of the following digitaldreamdoor forum rule has been posted by rockvirtuoso and removed ! I suggest you (rv) read the underlined portion of rule #8 and restrain your all too common tendencies.

rockvirtuoso wrote:
8. Conduct: Posters are expected to keep a certain level of respect between each other while posting on the forum. Physical threats, mindless attacks of another posters character, or useless remarks meant only as jabs at someone else have no place on the forum.
Posters who frequently abuse this rule will be banished from the forum.



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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Jazz Guitarists
PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 7:32 pm 
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it was more a jab in jest at wikipedia than anything, and no more useless than at least 3/4s of all the posts in this forum. by the way what was your excuse for deleting dreww's post here a few months back?


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Jazz Guitarists
PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 8:35 pm 
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rockvirtuoso wrote:
it was more a jab in jest at wikipedia (no, it was not)than anything, and no more useless than at least 3/4s of all the posts in this forum.


Good, now that I have your attention: As stated, useless remarks which are your forte :naughty: will not be tolerated on the threads in which I am the Moderator. Feel free to lower yourself to the lowest common denominator elsewhere.

one more time:
8. Conduct: Posters are expected to keep a certain level of respect between each other while posting on the forum. Physical threats, mindless attacks of another posters character, or useless remarks meant only as jabs at someone else have no place on the forum. Posters who frequently abuse this rule will be banished from the forum.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Jazz Guitarists
PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 2:52 am 
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George wrote:
where do you get these things?? do you read this misinformation off wikipedia?

dimeola doing gypsy jazz?? i've never heard him do it. both his technique and conception are decidedly non-gypsy-jazz. yes he does "latin jazz", but there is no such thing as "latin jazz guitar" and his basic style remains mostly the same.

To me, Dimeola's "Race with the Devil on a Spanish Highway" sounded very gypsy jazz. Although that is just my own personal assumtion without any reliable source to back up my own personal belief. Also, if there's no such thing as latin jazz guitar, why is he labeled as a Latin jazz guitarist?

when has holdsworth done mainstream jazz?
i know he has done acoustic work but that is not a style of guitar and he does the same thing on acoustic as he does on electric (and btw his album with gordon beck is my favorite work of his)

I actually had a long discussion about Holdsworth with the dude who edits his wikipidia page. He stated, "I can guarantee you that [The Things You See and Sunbird] are straight-up clean tone/acoustic jazz and nothing else. I've struggled for years to find any fusion whatsoever within those two albums..." This is one of the many reasons why Holdsworth may be considered a jazz guitarist. Mainstream jazz was just my own little interpretation.

what is "progressive jazz guitar" in metheny's case? what is progressive jazz, anyway? what is contemporary jazz? what is jazz-pop guitar? what techniques or concepts are associated with it?

Progressive jazz: http://www.allmusic.com/explore/style/p ... jazz-d2617
Contemporary jazz: http://www.allmusic.com/explore/metasty ... -jazz-d455
Jazz-pop: http://www.allmusic.com/explore/style/jazz-pop-d446
As for techniques or concepts I'm sure one internet search should help you out. I'm not a guitarist, so unfortunately I cannot provide you with info on the techniques or concepts.


if you're not sure whether frisell does fusion or not, you should actually check out his discography. along with scofield and metheny he is regarded as the leading jazz fusion guitarist of his generation, and most of his work i've heard from his ecm days til now is fusion.

According to allmusic, Frissel does these genres: Modern Creative, World Fusion, New Acoustic, Fusion, Post-Bop, Progressive Jazz, Neo-Traditiona,l Folk,Progressive Folk. I've never actually even heard him as being a fusion guitarist. And I'm a big time fusion listener.

when i categorized guys, i was aware that i pigeonholed them into one thing, but my point was to bring out a general trend in what i was seeing in the list... and what i did was very roughly divide jazz guitar into its main eras, and see how many guys fall into each one. i'm aware that most if not all of them are very eclectic musicians, so you're preaching to the choir.
(and i don't know why you only commented on the guys included in fusion; many non-fusion guitarists occupied more than one niche in guitar also)


The only thing that I was trying to point out was that the so called "fusion" guitarists may not be so "fusion" after all; and they may even play other jazz genres more so than fusion. A lot of the guitarists you put into the fusion category I would have instead put into the category of progressive jazz, post-bop, or contemporary jazz.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Jazz Guitarists
PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 9:37 am 
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Grant Green has kinda slipped below my radar, which is surprising as my fave player is George Benson. Listened to few albums on Napster and have bought a couple of albums and wow !!

DDD George has extolled his virtues on occasion and I'm now an instant fan. The influences on Benson are plain to see. Its interesting that they are only 8 years apart in age, and so chronologically, they were contemporaries. Having said that, Green had released 13 albums in two years from 61-62 and another 7 or 8 before Bensons 1st album came out.

Looking for 'Live at Club Mozambique' as its meant to be the highlight of his 'funk' phase


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Jazz Guitarists
PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 11:55 am 
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Seeker,
Idle Moments by Green is in constant rotation with me as is Midnight Blue by Kenny Burrell.
Try them both............



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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Jazz Guitarists
PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 12:13 pm 
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Idle Moments is one of the 2 that I have bought - Its wonderful

I'll give a listen to The Burrell album over the weekend


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Jazz Guitarists
PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 3:08 pm 
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izkool wrote:
To me, Dimeola's "Race with the Devil on a Spanish Highway" sounded very gypsy jazz.
gypsy jazz is a style of its own, it utilizes le pompe for rhythm and the lead playing is usually arpeggiated/intervallic and highly ornamental with wide vibrato, etc., in the tradition of django et al. diemola's playing is very diatonic and there's nothing gypsy about it whatsoever, to my ears.

Quote:
Also, if there's no such thing as latin jazz guitar, why is he labeled as a Latin jazz guitarist?
my guess is it is done out of ignorance by non-guitarists

Quote:
He stated, "I can guarantee you that [The Things You See and Sunbird] are straight-up clean tone/acoustic jazz and nothing else. I've struggled for years to find any fusion whatsoever within those two albums..." This is one of the many reasons why Holdsworth may be considered a jazz guitarist. Mainstream jazz was just my own little interpretation.
i see. well, i disagree with the editor. if you write out the guitar parts allan plays on the album with beck, and compare it with his solo stuff on electric, it is virtually the same thing, i almost guarantee you wouldn't be able to tell them apart. it is a unique album in allan's discography because it is (largely) acoustic and very bare (the only accompaniment being beck's piano)... that shouldn't fool you into thinking it's jazz.... there's plenty of fusion is done on acoustic (or even electric with clean tone) guitar and with little or no accompaniment.

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alright, experimental, somewhat dissonant, big band jazz music. what does metheny have to do with it? and, again, what does guitar have to do with it, in the first place?

Quote:
alright, as the name implies, a catchall term for popular mainstream jazz of the 80s and 90s. metheny was very popular, indeed. but that's not a style of music. and certainly not a guitar style.

Quote:
ok, so herb alpert and the ramsey lewis trio. so certainly more jazzy pop and than poppy jazz, but whatever... nothing to do with with metheny or guitar.

Quote:
As for techniques or concepts I'm sure one internet search should help you out. I'm not a guitarist, so unfortunately I cannot provide you with info on the techniques or concepts.
i'm sorry, but you'll have to do the search for me... i've been studying both jazz and fusion guitar and i've never encountered techniques or concepts used in playing any of those styles that are unique to them... it's the same thing as latin jazz guitar - there is no such thing... you can play latin jazz using whatever skill you already have, but there is no latin jazz guitar per se... same with progressive, contemporary, and jazz-pop.

Quote:
According to allmusic, Frissel does these genres: Modern Creative, World Fusion, New Acoustic, Fusion, Post-Bop, Progressive Jazz, Neo-Traditiona,l Folk,Progressive Folk. I've never actually even heard him as being a fusion guitarist. And I'm a big time fusion listener.
but he uses almost the same guitar style in all of those different musical genres. for example, for the past 20 years he has become known for fusing jazz and folk (to create neo-traditional, progressive folk, progressive jazz, even modern fusion and modern creative, and whatever other label they may slap on it, they're all describing the same thing). he also does fusion as in jazz/rock fusion - in channeling hendrix but with a decidedly jazz bent - i've witnessed it with my own ears.

Quote:
The only thing that I was trying to point out was that the so called "fusion" guitarists may not be so "fusion" after all; and they may even play other jazz genres more so than fusion. A lot of the guitarists you put into the fusion category I would have instead put into the category of progressive jazz, post-bop, or contemporary jazz.
like who? you haven't convinced me with frisell, metheny, holdsworth, carlton, or any of the others. i admitted they're eclectic and some of them play non-fusion guitar as well, but if i were to put one umbrella label over all of them, it would be fusion, because all of their unique and original styles are a result of combining jazz with other other idioms (mostly rock).


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Jazz Guitarists
PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 2:28 am 
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Hey rick, you guys have Allan Holdsworth labeled in the top 10 for "100 Best Jazz Guitarists". So obviously you must think that he does qualify for jazz/fusion rather than rock/fusion. I have my own reasons to why Holdsworth qualifies for jazz/fusion. Yet, what would your reasons be to why he is allowed on the jazz list rather than guys like Howe, Santana, Govan, Lane, Beck, etc...


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