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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Jazz Artists
PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 12:05 am 
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He should be higher. I also think that Herbie should move down


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Jazz Artists
PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 12:58 pm 
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Herbie shouldn't move down. He's been at the forefront of virtually every jazz movement since the 60s, pretty much becoming an outright musical chameleon in the same way as Miles.


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Jazz Artists
PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 7:48 pm 
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beaverteeth92 wrote:
Herbie shouldn't move down. He's been at the forefront of virtually every jazz movement since the 60s, pretty much becoming an outright musical chameleon in the same way as Miles.


Coincidence?


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Jazz Artists
PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 11:25 pm 
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pave wrote:
i'll get an argument together later and post it, but i'll just throw this out here for now to see if anyone else feels this way... is Jelly Roll like 10 spots too low on this list?


He should probably at least be ahead of Stan Getz and Clifford Brown.


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Jazz Artists
PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 2:07 pm 
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i agree.

btw an interesting bit of info...
"Monk is the second most recorded jazz composer after Duke Ellington, which is particularly remarkable as Ellington composed over 1,000 songs while Monk wrote about 70."


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Jazz Artists
PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 2:56 pm 
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^ Wikipedia?


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Jazz Artists
PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 9:25 pm 
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Bill Evans, as great as he was, looks a little high to me. Right now 18-23 reads:

18. Bill Evans
19. Art Tatum
20. Benny Goodman
21. Clifford Brown
22. Stan Getz
23. Jelly Roll Morton

I think this would be an improvement:

18. Art Tatum
19. Benny Goodman
20. Jelly Roll Morton
21. Bill Evans
22. Clifford Brown
23. Stan Getz


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Jazz Artists
PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 10:14 pm 
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I think that Evans was more a pioneer than Tatum was. Both were remarkably influential pianists but Evans' influence extends farther outside of just the piano


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Jazz Artists
PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 5:08 am 
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agree with that. could easily see art behind morton also


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Jazz Artists
PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2011 2:17 pm 
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Tatum's influence also extended beyond the piano and included Coleman Hawkins and Charlie Parker. But Evans was probably more influential anyway, at least in part because much of what Tatum did that was new was beyond the capabilities of most musicians. So Evans staying ahead of Tatum can be justified, though I think Tatum is generally considered the greatest jazz pianist, so it's close. Maybe Morton shopuld be ahead of both of them.

Concerning Hancock's placement, Bud Powell and Fletcher Henderson could move ahead of him, but no one else stands out to me as belonging ahead of him.


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Jazz Artists
PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2011 4:22 pm 
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Brian wrote:
Tatum's influence also extended beyond the piano and included Coleman Hawkins and Charlie Parker. But Evans was probably more influential anyway, at least in part because much of what Tatum did that was new was beyond the capabilities of most musicians. So Evans staying ahead of Tatum can be justified, though I think Tatum is generally considered the greatest jazz pianist, so it's close. Maybe Morton shopuld be ahead of both of them.

Concerning Hancock's placement, Bud Powell and Fletcher Henderson could move ahead of him, but no one else stands out to me as belonging ahead of him.


I've never heard of Tatum influencing Parker... do you have a reference to this?

I agree with Tatum was beyond the capabilities of most musicians... most of his stuff still IS beyond the capabilities of both musicians.

Tatum, Evans, Monk, and Peterson are the four who I've always considers as possibilities for number one. Tatum is definitely first in skill but in terms of influence on the piano it's very close.

As for Hancock, don't you think Django, the most influential jazz guitarist and gypsy swing artist, should be above him? Or Brubeck? Or Horace Silver?


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Jazz Artists
PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2011 6:19 pm 
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out of curiosity, what do the asterisks after certain names on the list mean?


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Jazz Artists
PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 2:29 pm 
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* indicates new entry. Until just now, some of the new entries hadn't been added to the main site, while others were a few years ago. I just changed that so that now the list in the first post is identical to the main site list, and the list in the 2nd post is the working revision, with * removed from both posts from those artists who are already on the main site list. At the moment, the only differences between the main site list and the revision are 4 additions to Honorable Mention, and I moved Morton ahead of Getz and Brown. He's likely to move up a little more, but this is a start.


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Jazz Artists
PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 3:23 pm 
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The Man wrote:
Brian wrote:
Tatum's influence also extended beyond the piano and included Coleman Hawkins and Charlie Parker. But Evans was probably more influential anyway, at least in part because much of what Tatum did that was new was beyond the capabilities of most musicians. So Evans staying ahead of Tatum can be justified, though I think Tatum is generally considered the greatest jazz pianist, so it's close. Maybe Morton shopuld be ahead of both of them.

Concerning Hancock's placement, Bud Powell and Fletcher Henderson could move ahead of him, but no one else stands out to me as belonging ahead of him.


I've never heard of Tatum influencing Parker... do you have a reference to this?

I agree with Tatum was beyond the capabilities of most musicians... most of his stuff still IS beyond the capabilities of both musicians.

Tatum, Evans, Monk, and Peterson are the four who I've always considers as possibilities for number one. Tatum is definitely first in skill but in terms of influence on the piano it's very close.

As for Hancock, don't you think Django, the most influential jazz guitarist and gypsy swing artist, should be above him? Or Brubeck? Or Horace Silver?


Two sources for Tatum's influence on Parker are Gary Giddins, Visions of Jazz, p. 441, and Grover Sales, Jazz: America's Classical Music, pp. 122-123.

Gypsy swing is a pretty small part of jazz history, and I would consider Charlie Christian to be a more influential guitarist, though I think it's right for Reinhardt to be ahead of Christian, because Django has a lot more significant recordings. But there might be a case for him and Silver ahead of Hancock. I doubt it for Brubeck.


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 Post subject: Re: Greatest Jazz Artists
PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 3:58 pm 
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i beg to differ, brian... "gypsy swing" may be a tiny part of american jazz history, but it's huge in europe: django single-handedly gave rise to jazz as an art in europe, rather than just a fad; "nuages" was the unofficial anthem of vichy france; django is considered a holy figure for gypsies all over the world (to a degree i don't think any jazz figure is regarded, maybe except st. john coltrane), etc... also django's influence extended far beyond the gypsy swing community - he was a big influence on coleman hawkins (his greatest record "body and soul" betrayed enormous inspiration from django, was made right after he returned to the states after touring europe and living in paris for several years, most of his concerts played with django), on charlie christian, on the whole bebop movement, on jazz "chamber music", and of course on literally every jazz guitarist who came around in the late 30s, 40s, and 50s... his direct and indirect influence was felt well into the 60s and 70s, and, as you know, tributes abound.

re: brubeck, if we consider him as a solo artist or just a pianist, i don't think he deserves to be any higher than he is now... but when taken to represent his classic quartet, i do think he could be listed a little higher...


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