DDD Home Page
DDD Music Lists Page
DDD Movie Lists Page
It is currently Tue Sep 02, 2014 1:50 pm

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 70 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Greatest Jazz Artists
PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 11:25 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 06, 2010 1:52 pm
Posts: 2671
pave wrote:
i'll get an argument together later and post it, but i'll just throw this out here for now to see if anyone else feels this way... is Jelly Roll like 10 spots too low on this list?


He should probably at least be ahead of Stan Getz and Clifford Brown.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Greatest Jazz Artists
PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 2:07 pm 
Offline
moderator
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2010 11:43 am
Posts: 4662
i agree.

btw an interesting bit of info...
"Monk is the second most recorded jazz composer after Duke Ellington, which is particularly remarkable as Ellington composed over 1,000 songs while Monk wrote about 70."


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Greatest Jazz Artists
PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 2:56 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2010 10:29 pm
Posts: 1090
Location: Louisville, KY
^ Wikipedia?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Greatest Jazz Artists
PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 9:25 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 06, 2010 1:52 pm
Posts: 2671
Bill Evans, as great as he was, looks a little high to me. Right now 18-23 reads:

18. Bill Evans
19. Art Tatum
20. Benny Goodman
21. Clifford Brown
22. Stan Getz
23. Jelly Roll Morton

I think this would be an improvement:

18. Art Tatum
19. Benny Goodman
20. Jelly Roll Morton
21. Bill Evans
22. Clifford Brown
23. Stan Getz


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Greatest Jazz Artists
PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 10:14 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2010 10:29 pm
Posts: 1090
Location: Louisville, KY
I think that Evans was more a pioneer than Tatum was. Both were remarkably influential pianists but Evans' influence extends farther outside of just the piano


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Greatest Jazz Artists
PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 5:08 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Oct 11, 2010 5:36 pm
Posts: 2932
agree with that. could easily see art behind morton also


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Greatest Jazz Artists
PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2011 2:17 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 06, 2010 1:52 pm
Posts: 2671
Tatum's influence also extended beyond the piano and included Coleman Hawkins and Charlie Parker. But Evans was probably more influential anyway, at least in part because much of what Tatum did that was new was beyond the capabilities of most musicians. So Evans staying ahead of Tatum can be justified, though I think Tatum is generally considered the greatest jazz pianist, so it's close. Maybe Morton shopuld be ahead of both of them.

Concerning Hancock's placement, Bud Powell and Fletcher Henderson could move ahead of him, but no one else stands out to me as belonging ahead of him.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Greatest Jazz Artists
PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2011 4:22 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2010 10:29 pm
Posts: 1090
Location: Louisville, KY
Brian wrote:
Tatum's influence also extended beyond the piano and included Coleman Hawkins and Charlie Parker. But Evans was probably more influential anyway, at least in part because much of what Tatum did that was new was beyond the capabilities of most musicians. So Evans staying ahead of Tatum can be justified, though I think Tatum is generally considered the greatest jazz pianist, so it's close. Maybe Morton shopuld be ahead of both of them.

Concerning Hancock's placement, Bud Powell and Fletcher Henderson could move ahead of him, but no one else stands out to me as belonging ahead of him.


I've never heard of Tatum influencing Parker... do you have a reference to this?

I agree with Tatum was beyond the capabilities of most musicians... most of his stuff still IS beyond the capabilities of both musicians.

Tatum, Evans, Monk, and Peterson are the four who I've always considers as possibilities for number one. Tatum is definitely first in skill but in terms of influence on the piano it's very close.

As for Hancock, don't you think Django, the most influential jazz guitarist and gypsy swing artist, should be above him? Or Brubeck? Or Horace Silver?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Greatest Jazz Artists
PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2011 6:19 pm 
Offline
moderator
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2010 11:43 am
Posts: 4662
out of curiosity, what do the asterisks after certain names on the list mean?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Greatest Jazz Artists
PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 2:29 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 06, 2010 1:52 pm
Posts: 2671
* indicates new entry. Until just now, some of the new entries hadn't been added to the main site, while others were a few years ago. I just changed that so that now the list in the first post is identical to the main site list, and the list in the 2nd post is the working revision, with * removed from both posts from those artists who are already on the main site list. At the moment, the only differences between the main site list and the revision are 4 additions to Honorable Mention, and I moved Morton ahead of Getz and Brown. He's likely to move up a little more, but this is a start.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Greatest Jazz Artists
PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 3:23 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 06, 2010 1:52 pm
Posts: 2671
The Man wrote:
Brian wrote:
Tatum's influence also extended beyond the piano and included Coleman Hawkins and Charlie Parker. But Evans was probably more influential anyway, at least in part because much of what Tatum did that was new was beyond the capabilities of most musicians. So Evans staying ahead of Tatum can be justified, though I think Tatum is generally considered the greatest jazz pianist, so it's close. Maybe Morton shopuld be ahead of both of them.

Concerning Hancock's placement, Bud Powell and Fletcher Henderson could move ahead of him, but no one else stands out to me as belonging ahead of him.


I've never heard of Tatum influencing Parker... do you have a reference to this?

I agree with Tatum was beyond the capabilities of most musicians... most of his stuff still IS beyond the capabilities of both musicians.

Tatum, Evans, Monk, and Peterson are the four who I've always considers as possibilities for number one. Tatum is definitely first in skill but in terms of influence on the piano it's very close.

As for Hancock, don't you think Django, the most influential jazz guitarist and gypsy swing artist, should be above him? Or Brubeck? Or Horace Silver?


Two sources for Tatum's influence on Parker are Gary Giddins, Visions of Jazz, p. 441, and Grover Sales, Jazz: America's Classical Music, pp. 122-123.

Gypsy swing is a pretty small part of jazz history, and I would consider Charlie Christian to be a more influential guitarist, though I think it's right for Reinhardt to be ahead of Christian, because Django has a lot more significant recordings. But there might be a case for him and Silver ahead of Hancock. I doubt it for Brubeck.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Greatest Jazz Artists
PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 3:58 pm 
Offline
moderator
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2010 11:43 am
Posts: 4662
i beg to differ, brian... "gypsy swing" may be a tiny part of american jazz history, but it's huge in europe: django single-handedly gave rise to jazz as an art in europe, rather than just a fad; "nuages" was the unofficial anthem of vichy france; django is considered a holy figure for gypsies all over the world (to a degree i don't think any jazz figure is regarded, maybe except st. john coltrane), etc... also django's influence extended far beyond the gypsy swing community - he was a big influence on coleman hawkins (his greatest record "body and soul" betrayed enormous inspiration from django, was made right after he returned to the states after touring europe and living in paris for several years, most of his concerts played with django), on charlie christian, on the whole bebop movement, on jazz "chamber music", and of course on literally every jazz guitarist who came around in the late 30s, 40s, and 50s... his direct and indirect influence was felt well into the 60s and 70s, and, as you know, tributes abound.

re: brubeck, if we consider him as a solo artist or just a pianist, i don't think he deserves to be any higher than he is now... but when taken to represent his classic quartet, i do think he could be listed a little higher...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Greatest Jazz Artists
PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 2:51 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 06, 2010 1:52 pm
Posts: 2671
Brubeck's placement is based on both his solo work and his group work.

I think what I'm about to say in this paragraph is a fair representation of jazz history as it is usually written, in fact always in the writings I'm familiar with. European jazz as a whole isn't a very big part of jazz history; America dominates jazz. This was especially true prior to the late '60s, at which time the contributions of Europeans increased. And the most important European jazz artists from the late '60s to the present don't play gypsy swing. So I think this adds of to a fairly small place in jazz history for gypsy swing.

Most of the other influence you cite I haven't seen anywhere else. Christian southwestern blues based jazz is quite different from Reinhardt's gypsy folk jazz, though I wouldn't be surprised if he was a minor influence. I was say his most important influences are that he was the first major jazz figure in Europe, the first major jazz guitarist, and a major influence on many jazz guitarists of the '30s. I don't doubt that his influence was felt into the '70s, but that can be said of many others, including Christian. Tributes are indicative of the esteem of the artist's work by other musicians, so they're relevant to his placement, but they're not influence.

Django and Brubeck came up in reference to Hancock's placement on the list, so here are 2 questions for anyone who wants to answer them. (It's also OK to just answer one of them. :wink: ) Is it wrong to have an artist who emerged in the last 50 years in the top 30 of this list? Should Hancock be the highest ranking artist who emerged during the last 50 years? Clarifying the criteria, it's 1/2 influence, 1/3 the quantity of highly esteemed recorded work, and 1/6 reputation as a musician and/or composer.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Greatest Jazz Artists
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 11:46 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2010 10:29 pm
Posts: 1090
Location: Louisville, KY
Sidney Bechet was so unbelievable. His tone is among the most perfect I've ever heard


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Greatest Jazz Artists
PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 2:36 am 
Offline
moderator
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2010 3:51 pm
Posts: 8600
Location: the undiscovered country
pave wrote:
wait, how is Sinatra not jazz? is swing not jazz? is big band not jazz? was he not singing jazz standards?

i dont fully understand why "vocal" or "vocal pop" is its own genre.


not to bring this up again, but Sarah Vaughan, Billie Holiday and Ella Fitzgerald are all here. i'm still confused on this. why are the great female vocal/jazz singers here but the great male vocal/jazz singers aren't? it seems inconsistent.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 70 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:

DigitalDreamDoor.com   

Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group

DigitalDreamDoor Forum is one part of a music and movie list website whose owner has given its visitors
the privilege to discuss music and movies, and has no control and cannot in any way be held liable over
how, or by whom this board is used. If you read or see anything inappropriate that has been posted,
contact webmaster@digitaldreamdoor.com. Comments in the forum are reviewed before list updates.
Topics include rock music, metal, rap, hip-hop, blues, jazz, songs, albums, guitar, drums, musicians...


DDD Home Page | DDD Music Lists Page | DDD Movie Lists Page