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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Metal Songs
PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 11:45 pm 
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Yeah I thought we agreed on the old forum that a Sabbath song was going to take #1, and had a massive debate over whether it should be Paranoid, War Pigs or Black Sabbath.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Metal Songs
PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 2:23 pm 
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HBTN vs Paranoid:


Popularity

Initial:
Paranoid was a great hit from the beginning. It reached number 4 in UK and 61 in the USA. No metal song can compare with it.
Lasting:
Hallowed be Thy Name is iconic song. It's played on practically every setlist at IM concerts. Fan favorite. But we can say the same thing for Paranoid. AND nowadays Paranoid is played more often than HBTN on the radio. From the other hand that advantage comes from being shorter and being more 'rock'. Nevertheless, Paranoid is more recognizable song.
Who wins? Paranoid takes popularity.

Impact

Musical:
Paranoid, as album, changed music in whole. Some bands started playing faster and heavier. One of the main reasons for it was 'Paranoid' song which contained everything that metal song needed: catchy riff, fast tempo and great solo. However, most of the influenced bands in that time just weren't as good as BS to make any kind of success or just was rather rock than metal (commercial issues). Most of the 'Paranoid-type' songs that made success mentioned above come from late 70s/early 80s. TNOTB was also album that changed music scene. With Bruce arrival IM gained a lot of new fans. And of course a lot of people who wanted to play like Maiden did. On that album there were 3 songs which were played the most at the concerts and were popular from the beginning of the album (dmile: one of the reasons why Gangland can't compare with Hallowed – just look at live CDs or bootlegs or concerts from Beast on the Road and ask yourself which song was played more often). One of them, HBTN, was different than usual metal song – the bells at the start, dark atmosphere and then pure piece of metal art. That had response in metal world. Even simple NWoBHM started to make darker (thanks to # and Hallowed, but of course there were other obvious influences on that) and more complicated albums. Not to mention whole metal started to be more progressive in that time. And one of the many reasons for it was Hallowed.
Cultural:
Hallowed lyrics, sometimes regarded as the best in metal, were somehow important in developing the new idea – making metal songs with ambitious lyrics, not only about chicks, fun, fast cars or something like that. Metal, thanks to that kind of songs, isn't considered brainless. At least not for all, lol. Maybe that's not my biggest argument, but it's always good to mention little things like this.
Commercial:
Paranoid was designed to be THE catchy, commercial song. Short enough to get radioplay, good enough to get attention. Many metal bands followed Paranoid idea how to make good music and get commercial success. Especially when the metal was in diapers.
Who wins? Musical impact is by far the most important from those 3. Hallowed has small advantage there, which is leveled by Paranoid win in commercial impact. So I guess that's tie.

Influence

Musical:
In the long term Hallowed influenced more metal artists than Paranoid. The latter affected metal when it was starting. It's a standard song which gained popularity, respect and hearts of people who wanted to play loud. Hallowed was a turning point in more aspects. Bells (black metal) and combination of soft riff and voice followed by speeding up tempo are present to this day (any epic, w/o mentioning voice – death metal). Changes from mysterious climate to anger (prog death), reaching climax then returning to slower pace (prog) dark atmosphere (doom metal, symphonic black metal), treating about life and death (death metal) – that affected all kinds of metal (examples in brackets). Hallowed influences are visible. The fuck, how many metal bands covered HBTN and how many different metal styles they represent: Dream Theater, Iced Earth, Cradle of Filth, Ceremonial Oath, Solitude Aeturnus, Brown Brigade. That just proves Hallowed formed and is still forming metal.
Cultural:
Songs can't have much cultural impact and all I wanted to write about is written already.
Commercial:
Paranoid has a big influence to this day as one of those songs which can bring new fans to metal. Also structure of the song is considered as metal standard. But nowadays also 'dark' bands can receive commercial success. Lyrics about death, absorbing composition and great musical quality – all this can get you money.
Who wins? Hallowed, it's winning in musical influence, in my eyes the single most important criterion.

Summing everything up it's too close to tie to debate over details. Wins in lyrical and musical quality turn the scale at Hallowed.

Conclusion:
Many of users turned out argument that: 'I just don't fell Hallowed should be 1st' or something like that. In previous topic we were divided into two groups, with the same amount of people. One group suggested that BS should have number one on this list, other wanted Hallowed. Tell me why BS should top this list when you can't even decide which BS song should it be. BS has got 4 fucking great songs which can alone be the symbol of metal, but why it should top the list by force? There is a reason why most of us is thinking about Hallowed (MoP) when it comes to question which is the greatest song from Maiden (Metallica). Songs – icons of bands like Metallica or IM in my opinion should be higher than BS songs just because BS hasn't got that 'one and only' song. But I would be hanged if I would put MoP at #2 or even (oh God, I'm writing this) 1 place higher, because only few people are following criteria regardless of their feelings. Hallowed should stay number one because it's fairly popular, had decent impact, it's influence is present to this day, it has great musical quality, composition and one of the best lyrics in metal. It was also number one for couple of years and I guess noone could make argument why any song should be higher than HBTN. All of this and also unbelievable acclaim of fans should make it the greatest metal song of all time.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Metal Songs
PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 5:29 pm 
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MJ7 wrote:
HBTN vs Paranoid:
Popularity
Initial:Paranoid was a great hit from the beginning. It reached number 4 in UK and 61 in the USA. No metal song can compare with it.
Lasting: Hallowed be Thy Name is iconic song. It's played on practically every setlist at IM concerts. Fan favorite. But we can say the same thing for Paranoid. AND nowadays Paranoid is played more often than HBTN on the radio. From the other hand, that advantage comes from being shorter and being more 'rock'. Nevertheless, Paranoid is more recognizable song.
Who wins? Paranoid takes popularity.


You say that "Paranoid" takes popularity, but you don't talk about the margin of victory. "Paranoid" is as close to a ten as a metal song can get. "Hallowed"? I think it is overly generous to give it a four.

Quote:
Impact
Musical: Paranoid, as album, changed music in whole. Some bands started playing faster and heavier. One of the main reasons for it was 'Paranoid' song which contained everything that metal song needed: catchy riff, fast tempo and great solo. However, most of the influenced bands in that time just weren't as good as BS to make any kind of success or just was rather rock than metal (commercial issues). Most of the 'Paranoid-type' songs that made success mentioned above come from late 70s/early 80s.

TNOTB was also album that changed music scene. With Bruce arrival IM gained a lot of new fans. And of course a lot of people who wanted to play like Maiden did. On that album there were 3 songs which were played the most at the concerts and were popular from the beginning of the album (dmile: one of the reasons why Gangland can't compare with Hallowed – just look at live CDs or bootlegs or concerts from Beast on the Road and ask yourself which song was played more often).

One of them, HBTN, was different than usual metal song – the bells at the start, dark atmosphere and then pure piece of metal art. That had response in metal world. Even simple NWoBHM started to make darker (thanks to # and Hallowed, but of course there were other obvious influences on that) and more complicated albums. Not to mention whole metal started to be more progressive in that time. And one of the many reasons for it was Hallowed.

Cultural: Hallowed lyrics, sometimes regarded as the best in metal, were somehow important in developing the new idea – making metal songs with ambitious lyrics, not only about chicks, fun, fast cars or something like that. Metal, thanks to that kind of songs, isn't considered brainless. At least not for all, lol. Maybe that's not my biggest argument, but it's always good to mention little things like this.

Commercial: Paranoid was designed to be THE catchy, commercial song. Short enough to get radioplay, good enough to get attention. Many metal bands followed Paranoid idea how to make good music and get commercial success. Especially when the metal was in diapers.

Who wins? Musical impact is by far the most important from those 3. Hallowed has small advantage there, which is leveled by Paranoid win in commercial impact. So I guess that's tie.


"Hallowed" wasn't a brainless tune about chicks, cars and fun? That was a new idea in 1982? Or was it just a new idea within the world of metal?

And yet somehow, "Paranoid" is just a catchy, commercial song? Are we talking heavy metal or sunshine pop? Now what were you saying about implication? And if that is such a draw back, then why not have "War Pigs" as number two? Not dark and ambitious enough?

Metal was becoming more progressive at that time (82)? More progressive than whom or than what? Only if Deep Purple & Uriah Heep weren't "metal". Because IMO they were progressive metal from the start of "metal" (69-70).

Or we can jump to the mid-70s, if you like. More progressive than Sad Wings or Sin After Sin? What about 2112? Oh yeah almost forgot; "Dude, Rush ain't metal!". How 'bout Rainbow Rising?

Quote:
Influence

Musical: In the long term, Hallowed influenced more metal artists than Paranoid. The latter affected metal when it was starting. It's a standard song which gained popularity, respect and hearts of people who wanted to play loud. Hallowed was a turning point in more aspects. Bells (black metal) and combination of soft riff and voice followed by speeding up tempo are present to this day (any epic, w/o mentioning voice – death metal). Changes from mysterious climate to anger (prog death), reaching climax then returning to slower pace (prog) dark atmosphere (doom metal, symphonic black metal), treating about life and death (death metal) – that affected all kinds of metal (examples in brackets). Hallowed influences are visible. The fuck, how many metal bands covered HBTN and how many different metal styles they represent: Dream Theater, Iced Earth, Cradle of Filth, Ceremonial Oath, Solitude Aeturnus, Brown Brigade. That just proves Hallowed formed and is still forming metal.

Cultural: Songs can't have much cultural impact and all I wanted to write about is written already.

Commercial: Paranoid has a big influence to this day as one of those songs which can bring new fans to metal. Also structure of the song is considered as metal standard. But nowadays also 'dark' bands can receive commercial success. Lyrics about death, absorbing composition and great musical quality – all this can get you money.

Who wins? Hallowed, it's winning in musical influence, in my eyes the single most important criterion.


"Hallowed" was a turning point with its sound and structure? It starts with bells. It has a mysterious climate and a dark atmosphere. Goes from soft and slow to an increasing tempo, reaches an angry climax all the while struggling with the great issues of life and death, damnation and salvation. Have I got that right? It proves that "Hallowed" formed metal? Wow! One song did all that?

I think I liked "Hallowed" better the first time I heard it; when it was called "Black Sabbath".

Lemmy see here...Bells? Check. Mysterious climate? Check. Dark atmosphere? Check. Start out soft and slow? Check. Increasing tempo? Check. Angry climax? Check. Life and Death? Check.

Seems like the turning point that broke all this new ground happened in 1970. And that it took Maiden a dozen years to catch up to where Sabbath started.

Quote:
Summing everything up it's too close to tie to debate over details. Wins in lyrical and musical quality turn the scale at Hallowed.


Yeah, I can see why you'd rather not let those pesky details get in the way.

Quote:
Conclusion: Many of users turned out argument that: 'I just don't feel Hallowed should be 1st' or something like that. In previous topic we were divided into two groups, with the same amount of people. One group suggested that BS should have number one on this list, other wanted Hallowed. Tell me why BS should top this list when you can't even decide which BS song should it be. BS has got 4 fucking great songs which can alone be the symbol of metal, but why it should top the list by force?

There is a reason why most of us is thinking about Hallowed (MoP) when it comes to question which is the greatest song from Maiden (Metallica). Songs – icons of bands like Metallica or IM in my opinion should be higher than BS songs just because BS hasn't got that 'one and only' song. But I would be hanged if I would put MoP at #2 or even (oh God, I'm writing this) 1 place higher, because only few people are following criteria regardless of their feelings. Hallowed should stay number one because it's fairly popular, had decent impact, it's influence is present to this day, it has great musical quality, composition and one of the best lyrics in metal. It was also number one for couple of years and I guess noone could make argument why any song should be higher than HBTN. All of this and also unbelievable acclaim of fans should make it the greatest metal song of all time.


My opinion is not based on my feewings. It's based on the criteria. You take popularity out of there and maybe you have an argument for "Hallowed". A half-@ssed one, but an argument none the less. Keep it in and you have a better argument for Run to the Hills than you do for "Hallowed".

Sabbath had 4 great songs that can stand as the symbol of metal? Only four? More like 15-20 by my estimation. There are at least 4 on the Paranoid album alone.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Metal Songs
PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 8:07 pm 
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dmille wrote:
You say that "Paranoid" takes popularity, but you don't talk about the margin of victory. "Paranoid" is as close to a ten as a metal song can get. "Hallowed"? I think it is overly generous to give it a four.

Ha-ha-ha. HBTN would be in the top 10 from Maiden. Talking only about popularity. And you generously give it 'four'. Nice scale.
dmille wrote:
"Hallowed" wasn't a brainless tune about chicks, cars and fun? That was a new idea in 1982? Or was it just a new idea within the world of metal?

Nope, it just was one of the reasons why new trend started. In 1982 great majority of songs didn't have meaningful lyrics.
dmille wrote:
And if that is such a draw back, then why not have "War Pigs" as number two? Not dark and ambitious enough?

I'm not denying War Pigs influence.
dmille wrote:
Metal was becoming more progressive at that time (82)? More progressive than whom or than what?

More progressive than metal in 81 :freak: Short, full of energy tracks were dominating metal scene at the beginning. Mainly because metal got it's roots from hard rock, where that kind of songs were by far the most common ones.
dmille wrote:
Lemmy see here...Bells? Check. Mysterious climate? Check. Dark atmosphere? Check. Start out soft and slow? Check. Increasing tempo? Check. Angry climax? Check. Life and Death? Check.

Fast riffs? Variety of riffs? Diversity of solos? Returning to slower pace after climax? Many tempo changes? Ending by screaming? BS is more doom-oriented song and is rather heavier. It's influence on 'dark music' is however undoubtedly bigger. I didn't say that HBTN was more progressive, darker than any song created earlier or it had the first lyrics about life and death in metal. I said: 'HBTN is progressive, dark, has touching lyrics about human existence and that affected metal'. And I proved it.
dmille wrote:
Seems like the turning point that broke all this new ground happened in 1970.

That's very true. Black Sabbath is one of the greatest metal songs of all time. And also you've just proven that Black Sabbath+War Pigs+Paranoid > Hallowed. Well done! Ask yourself what songs are we comparing.
dmille wrote:
My opinion is not based on my feewings. It's based on the criteria. You take popularity out of there and maybe you have an argument for "Hallowed". A half-@ssed one, but an argument none the less. Keep it in and you have a better argument for Run to the Hills than you do for "Hallowed".

Based on criteria? I have half-assed arguments. You don't have any for Paranoid besides popularity. Checkmate.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Metal Songs
PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 10:02 pm 
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MJ7 wrote:
Fast riffs? Variety of riffs? Diversity of solos? Returning to slower pace after climax? Many tempo changes? Ending by screaming? BS is more doom-oriented song and is rather heavier. It's influence on 'dark music' is however undoubtedly bigger. I didn't say that HBTN was more progressive, darker than any song created earlier or it had the first lyrics about life and death in metal. I said: 'HBTN is progressive, dark, has touching lyrics about human existence and that affected metal'. And I proved it.


Don't start backpedalling now. That's not all you said. You also said that "Hallowed formed metal".

"I didn't say HBTN was more progressive"
"Not to mention [the] whole [of] metal started to be more progressive in that time. And one of the many reasons for it was Hallowed."

"I didn't say HBTN was...darker"
"Even simple NWoBHM started to make darker (thanks to # and Hallowed, but of course there were other obvious influences on that) and more complicated albums."

"I didn't say that HBTN...had the first lyrics about life and death in metal."
"Hallowed lyrics, sometimes regarded as the best in metal, were somehow important in developing the new idea – making metal songs with ambitious lyrics, not only about chicks, fun, fast cars or something like that."

You didn't prove jack-sh!t. You merely stated your opinion. And as I pointed out, "Hallowed" barely broke any new ground at all based on your own description and my comparison of that description to "Black Sabbath".

Quote:
That's very true. Black Sabbath is one of the greatest metal songs of all time. And also you've just proven that Black Sabbath+War Pigs+Paranoid > Hallowed. Well done! Ask yourself what songs are we comparing.


You got your equation wrong. It should look like this:

Black Sabbath>Hallowed + War Pigs> Hallowed + Paranoid>Hallowed (you're welcome)


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Metal Songs
PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2010 5:31 am 
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dmille wrote:
[...]"Paranoid"[...]? I think it is overly generous to give it a four. [....] A half-@ssed [...] Run to the Hills

See? I can quote without understanding text too :parrot:


If you still don't understand what I meant look at this:
MJ7 wrote:
I didn't say that HBTN was more progressive [..] than any song created earlier

Metal was getting more progressive because there were songs like Hallowed which, thanks to it's composition and popularity, showed that this kind of music can be enjoyable and can become fan favorite.


Well, stop fooling around. Even I have got more arguments favoring Paranoid over HBTN than you.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Metal Songs
PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2010 11:14 am 
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Not contibuting much here. but I think you're rally overestimating Hallowed's importance. Bands like Priest also had more "progressive" songs before 81.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Metal Songs
PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2010 1:05 pm 
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Yeah. VoC is one of the most important songs for the genre and I think JP, Rush and King Crimson are the main influences for hard progressive music before mid 80s. But Hallowed was one of the few that kind of popular songs which came from well-recognized heavy metal artist at that time. And it was unique, back in 82.

You're also right about my overestimating HBTN. I just wanted to show it wins with Paranoid in influence, which is rather sure thing for me. At least with arguments I have in mind.


I'm curious what's your opinion about our recent problem.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Metal Songs
PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2010 1:14 pm 
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I'm confused as to why it's Paranoid we're talking about, instead of Black Sabbath. It was pretty well established before that that should be Sabbath's highest. Giving such creedence to mainstream popularity here is really silly.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Metal Songs
PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2010 2:05 pm 
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Sherick wrote:
I'm confused as to why it's Paranoid we're talking about, instead of Black Sabbath. It was pretty well established before that that should be Sabbath's highest. Giving such creedence to mainstream popularity here is really silly.


"Mainstream" popularity? Bridge Over Troubled Waters topped the UK album chart 5 seperate times in 1970 for a total of 24 weeks. I kinda doubt that it was the same fans who put Paranoid atop that same chart for a week.

Even Led Zeppelin's string of US and UK number ones or GFR's 8 US top ten albums weren't an indication of mainstream acceptance. IMO it was evidence of a new generation of music fans hungry for a new sound and ready to embrace these new bands.


Last edited by dmille on Sat Nov 06, 2010 2:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Metal Songs
PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2010 2:47 pm 
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What in the fuck are you talking about?


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Metal Songs
PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2010 3:13 pm 
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Sherick wrote:
What in the fuck are you talking about?


I'm saying that "mainstream" popularity is relative. Iron Maiden's most recent album went to number one in the UK and number 4 in the US. Taylor Swift's lastest went number one in the US and number 6 in the UK. It wasn't the same people buying both albums.


Last edited by dmille on Tue Nov 16, 2010 12:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Metal Songs
PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2010 3:15 pm 
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I know plenty of bubblegum pop fans who own Maiden, Sabbath and Metallica albums.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Metal Songs
PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2010 3:28 pm 
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bloodredchaos wrote:
I know plenty of bubblegum pop fans who own Maiden, Sabbath and Metallica albums.


shore ewe dew


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Metal Songs
PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2010 3:53 pm 
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I know at least three people who are not metalheads who own Iron Maiden stuff.

Tbh, I have no idea why you are discussing this. The tangent you went on really has nothing to do with what I said. I simply said that putting so much emphasis on popularity is not good, not in this list at least.


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