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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Metal Songs
PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2011 3:31 am 
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Doom owed a lot more to stuff like Hand of Doom, Lord of this World, and Snowblind than Black Sabbath, btw. Black Sabbath may be slow, but it's not really doomy (slow =/= doom). Most trad. doom bands aren't snail-crawlingly slow, except for certain "epic" doom bands.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Metal Songs
PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2011 11:09 am 
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Yeah, I've always seen Black Sabbath as one of the most overrated songs as far as influence. If it was as influential as said, Warship and Shape of Despair would be amongst the most popular bands around.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Metal Songs
PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2011 3:23 pm 
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Quote:
You're angry because you cannot make the proper arguments, just like in discussion in the previous topic.


What more do you want? Every time someone makes a case, like dmille did earlier in this thread, you just dismiss it and say "you have no arguments". I dont get it.

Quote:
I guess burned churches in 90's caused more controversy in the world than satanism in Black Sabbath album.


What does that have to do with AoS vs. BS?

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Top 10 will remain the same for now, but I will still like to see your preferred order, Neg Creep.


MY preferred top 10? Probably something like this...

1. War Pigs
2. Hallowed
3. Paranoid
4. Black Sabbath
5. Victim Of Changes
6. Angel Of Death
7. Ace Of Spades
8. The Number Of The Beast
9. Iron Man
10. Beyond The Realms Of Death


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Metal Songs
PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2011 3:24 pm 
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bloodredchaos wrote:
Doom owed a lot more to stuff like Hand of Doom, Lord of this World, and Snowblind than Black Sabbath, btw. Black Sabbath may be slow, but it's not really doomy (slow =/= doom). Most trad. doom bands aren't snail-crawlingly slow, except for certain "epic" doom bands.


But the whole IDEA of doom owes everything to Black Sabbath.
I know it's not just about being slow, it's about creating that dark atmosphere too, which BS does in spades.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Metal Songs
PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2011 10:18 pm 
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Doom is just one part of metal. Thrash, black, death, speed metal are, combined, more than one part of metal.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Metal Songs
PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2011 12:52 am 
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Neg's top 10 is probably my favourite so far.

I'd say something along the lines of
1. War Pigs
2. Paranoid
3. Hallowed Be Thy Name
4. Black Sabbath
5. Master of Puppets
6. Angel of Death
7. Ace of Spades
8. Victim of Changes
9. The Number of the Beast
10. Iron Man

3-5 for me is fucking tricky, 4&5 may be interchangable.
I don't think Angel of Death should be in the top 5.
War Pigs, Paranoid and Black Sabbath should all be top 5.
Fill in the blanks.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Metal Songs
PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2011 4:44 am 
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Negative Creep wrote:
What more do you want? Every time someone makes a case, like dmille did earlier in this thread, you just dismiss it and say "you have no arguments". I dont get it.

What does that have to do with AoS vs. BS?

The thing is, in your 4 posts you are talking all over again about controversy of Black Sabbath. That doesn't bring anything new to the topic. Same case was with popularity of Paranoid some time ago. Or in the album list where you wanted to put SWoD above RtL having only argument in influence. That kind of debates are silly and pointless.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Metal Songs
PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2011 2:46 pm 
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Quote:
The thing is, in your 4 posts you are talking all over again about controversy of Black Sabbath. That doesn't bring anything new to the topic.


:facepalm:
Controversy = impact. That's what we were discussing, and it's part of this criteria. If this music created a lot of controversy, and got very intense reactions, then obviously it had an impact. WHY IS THIS HARD TO UNDERSTAND? Before this song came out, there was nothing to compare it to. Nothing even remotely that sounded the same. That's why it was so impactful. It was a complete change in the realm of hard rock, not just a slight expansion on speed metal.

Quote:
Same case was with popularity of Paranoid some time ago. Or in the album list where you wanted to put SWoD above RtL having only argument in influence. That kind of debates are silly and pointless.


Wouldnt you agree that influence should be weighed more when considering greatness? How the fuck is something like, popularity, somehow as imoprtant as INFLUENCE on a greatness list?


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Metal Songs
PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2011 3:55 pm 
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Negative Creep wrote:
Controversy = impact

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equation
Equation works in both directions. Your doesn't.

Controversy is a part of the cultural impact, agreed. But where is the musical impact of BS? Show me examples, please.
Negative Creep wrote:
just a slight expansion on speed metal

It's a definition, not a slight change. Why do you underestimate genres/bands you don't like? Top 10 without MoP? Silly. Your first version of album list didn't include any Metallica albums. In your opinion Manowar loses badly in every criterion with Dio. Man, even I am more objective :lol:
Negative Creep wrote:
Wouldnt you agree that influence should be weighed more when considering greatness?

Nope, the big three are equal.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Metal Songs
PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2011 4:07 pm 
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Quote:
Controversy is a part of the cultural impact, agreed. But where is the musical impact of BS? Show me examples, please.


It was controversial because of the music. The heavy down-tuned guitar, the creepy subject matter, the tortured vocals...all of this together was never done successfully before Black Sabbath came out.
As Iommi himself said, "They hated us, absolutely hated us. And the radio wouldnt play us. We really got slammed". This was so much of an impact, that this style wasn't seen from another band until 5 years later, when Priest released Sad Wings.

Quote:
It's a definition, not a slight change. Why do you underestimate genres/bands you don't like? Top 10 without MoP? Silly.


Shit, I cant even believe I forgot about it... :oops:

Quote:
Your first version of album list didn't include any Metallica albums. In your opinion Manowar loses badly in every criterion with Dio. Man, even I am more objective :lol:


I doubt it. You were given reasons why Paranoid is greater than Hallowed. Dmille made a very good case earlier in the thread, and other people even agreed with him. Yet, you refuse to move Hallowed from #1. How is that objective?

Quote:
Nope, the big three are equal.


Which is stupid.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Metal Songs
PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2011 4:19 pm 
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Negative Creep wrote:
You were given reasons why Paranoid is greater than Hallowed.Yet, you refuse to move Hallowed from #1. How is that objective?

Negative Creep wrote:
2. Hallowed
3. Paranoid

:whistle:
Negative Creep wrote:
This was so much of an impact, that this style wasn't seen from another band until 5 years later

Impact is immediate.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Metal Songs
PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2011 4:24 pm 
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MJ7 wrote:
Negative Creep wrote:
You were given reasons why Paranoid is greater than Hallowed.Yet, you refuse to move Hallowed from #1. How is that objective?

Negative Creep wrote:
2. Hallowed
3. Paranoid

:whistle:
Negative Creep wrote:
This was so much of an impact, that this style wasn't seen from another band until 5 years later

Impact is immediate.


Then why is Hallowed still #1 on the front page of this? :eh:

And I think we have different definitions of the term 'impact'.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Metal Songs
PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2011 4:36 pm 
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Negative Creep wrote:
And I think we have different definitions of the term 'impact'.

Impact got one definition. Same goes with influence. What's the difference between them? Impact is immediate, influence is long term. I said it five to ten times in this topic.
Negative Creep wrote:
Then why is Hallowed still #1 on the front page of this? :eh:

Because I quoted your sentence, not mine. Just to clarify that even you agree that HBTN should be higher than Paranoid.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Metal Songs
PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2011 4:55 pm 
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Quote:
Impact got one definition. Same goes with influence. What's the difference between them? Impact is immediate, influence is long term. I said it five to ten times in this topic.


Impact and influence are interdependent. If you have influence, then obviously you've made some kind of impact. You cant have one without the other, at least not significantly.

Quote:
Because I quoted your sentence, not mine. Just to clarify that even you agree that HBTN should be higher than Paranoid.


Not necessarily.


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 Post subject: Re: 100 Greatest Metal Songs
PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2011 3:06 am 
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Negative Creep wrote:
Quote:
Impact [has] got one definition. Same goes with influence. What's the difference between them? Impact is immediate, influence is long term. I said it five to ten times in this topic.


Impact and influence are interdependent. If you have influence, then obviously you've made some kind of impact. You cant have one without the other, at least not significantly.


There are two kinds of impact; commercial and underground. Often, the underground will have more influence over time...


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