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 Post subject: Re: The top 10 songs by artists index
PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 11:44 am 
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Negative Creep wrote:
You may notice that I actually made an argument after the "what about them" part.
But I guess it took too much effort to read.

But on the other hand, "superficial douche", now THAT is a great fucking argument man!

I admit defeat.

"I'm gonna start firing with both barrels".

Yeah? Well do mankind a favor and use both of them to "fire" your fucking brains out.


The worse thing about Black Sabbath is Black Sabbath fans. Your point is the same tired bullshit about Black Sabbath being the be-all & end-all of metal. Why did anyone even feel a need to record after they heard Black Sabbath? Sabbath should have just released "Black Sabbath" the song and been done with it. In fact, why bother even listening to the music? All we need is a Black Sabbath fan to tell us about how it is "the greatest metal song of all time, man!"


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 Post subject: Re: The top 10 songs by artists index
PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 8:41 pm 
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That's right, and dont forget it.

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 Post subject: Re: The top 10 songs by artists index
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 1:12 am 
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It's probably a mistake, but I am gonna try this one more time.

Negative Creep wrote:
dmille wrote:
"Cultural impact" will be lasting and a part of influence, otherwise it's just flash-in-the-pan. Cultural impact can be within the over all-culture of the world, or subcultural within music, within rock, within hard rock or just within metal.

Nowhere on this thread is there a criteria listed with cultural impact as part of it.


I believe it was you who brought up the topic of cultural impact. Or did I read this incorrectly?

Negative Creep wrote:
Machine Head wrote:
how? we're talking about music, so it kinda figures that we would be talking about musical impact...

Because there are different kinds of impact, as shown by many other lists on DDD - commercial impact, cultural impact, musical impact, etc. Overall I can agree with musical impact though.


I was simply pointing out how those different types of impact can fit into the main criteria.

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I keep repeating myself on this point and I am going to have to do it again. Impact, influence and popularity are interdependent. If no one is buying your music, no one is listening to your music. If no one is listening to your music, it won't have much, if any, impact. Who will be influenced by it?

I agree and that's why I've always felt that there isn't really a need for impact, influence, and popularity to be listed separately. They're all related.


Lemmy see if I understand this. You thought I shouldn't be questioning the criteria of the Greatest Hard Rock Bands thread 30 pages in, but you want to re-write the criteria of the Metal forum years after the fact? You can't have it both ways.

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What about those influenced by Screaming Jay Hawkins? Or by Alice Cooper?

What about them? It still wouldn't change the fact that Black Sabbath introduced the idea within the context of heavy metal (with Cooper right on their heels).
Look at all the other bands that were being considered 'metal' of the same basic time period - Zep, Purple, Heep, Blue Cheer, etc., they were all heavy but none of them were making anything like "Black Sabbath", not even remotely close.


Your original statement was not that they introduced the idea. You said any metal bands who uses those themes owes all to Sabbath.

Negative Creep wrote:
Once again, I'm saying that any metal band who uses horror/supernatural lyrical and musical themes owes everything to Black Sabbath.


Cooper was Sabbath's contemporary and much more popular in the US than Sabbath was. Another of their contemporaries, Black Widow was using the same imagery in their songs and concerts at the same time. Sabbath wasn't doing this in some vacuum. And they weren't the only ones.

Zeppelin, Purple and Heep were not making anything like "Black Sabbath"? Maybe because they weren't clones. On that same note, Sabbath never made anything like "Dazed & Confused", "Child In Time", or "Gypsy" either.

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There wasn't an official metal scene? It was being created right then and there, by Sabbath and their contemporaries in the UK and the US.

But that's exactly my point - it was BEING created at that time, it wasn't fully established. It was in the embryonic stages. It still had a long way to go.


Just when did this "official" metal scene come into being? Fact is that, no, it didn't have a long way to go; any more than progressive rock or glam rock somehow had a long way to go in 70.

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Paranoid a radio-friendly song? Are we talking sunshine pop or heavy metal here? Paranoid is not and was not a radio-friendly song. Neither are Whole Lotta Love nor Black Night.

I guess that's why it's constantly played on the radio to this very day.


Getting played on the radio automatically makes a song radio-friendly? Where do you come up with this bullshit? The industry HATED heavy metal. Songs like "Paranoid", "Black Night" and "Whole Lotta Love" only got air play because of their popularity and then fan demand forced them to be played.

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War Pigs, Iron Man and Paranoid are important as songs for a number of reasons. First and foremost, they're kick@ss! They're kick@ss the first time they got played and everytime they get played.

That's a given. And what, Black Sabbath isn't kick ass too? Should be a given as well.


Your original question was how are War Pigs, Iron Man and Paranoid important as songs. I don't recall you asking why Black Sabbath was important.

Negative Creep wrote:
The only thing Iron Man, War Pigs, and Paranoid have over BS is that they are more popular. But how were they important as songs (not just riffs)?


I notice that you ignored the rest of my answer about why they were important as songs. Maybe that's why you changed the subject. You said in another thread something about metal being your first love. How can that be when you have to ask what is important about those three songs?

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As I said the criteria are interdependent. Paranoid had a bigger impact due to it's popularity. A metal head is going to have any number of Sabbath albums and songs (all?), on CDs or via downloads. But an average music, rock or hard rock fan? If they have only one Sabbath album, it's likely either Paranoid or Heaven & Hell.

So what? You just got through emphasizing how the criteria were strictly WITHIN the world of metal, but now all of a sudden you want to include the viewpoint of "an average music, rock or hard rock fan"?


Fact is that everyone has to start somewhere. When someone becomes a rock or hard rock or metal fan, they'd usually start with what they've heard on the radio or what they've heard in someone else's music collection. In 1970 or 2012, it's more much likely that a metal head's introduction to Sabbath is going to be thru the Paranoid album, rather than their debut.

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And the influence of Paranoid and it's songs transcends even metal and rock. "Paranoid" has been used in many movie soundtracks and even a TV commercial. Though not originally related to the comic book character, "Iron Man" got a new lease on life when it was included in the soundtrack for the Iron Man movie.

All of that has to do with popularity, not as much in the influence or impact. I think it's obvious that popularity and impact are pretty much being defined as the same thing here, so it really is pointless to have them listed apart. Why not just make it influence/importance/popularity?


No, it has to do with cultural impact, music and movies both being a part of the popular culture. Which as I pointed out is a topic that you raised. And as I also pointed out it's a part of lasting influence.


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 Post subject: Re: The top 10 songs by artists index
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 7:53 am 
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dmille wrote:
I believe it was you who brought up the topic of cultural impact. Or did I read this incorrectly?

Negative Creep wrote:
Machine Head wrote:
how? we're talking about music, so it kinda figures that we would be talking about musical impact...

Because there are different kinds of impact, as shown by many other lists on DDD - commercial impact, cultural impact, musical impact, etc. Overall I can agree with musical impact though.


I was simply pointing out how those different types of impact can fit into the main criteria.


Ok then.

dmille wrote:
Lemmy see if I understand this. You thought I shouldn't be questioning the criteria of the Greatest Hard Rock Bands thread 30 pages in, but you want to re-write the criteria of the Metal forum years after the fact? You can't have it both ways.


It was just a suggestion. I said why not add importance, because "impact" is always gonna be fairly open to interpretation.

dmille wrote:
Your original statement was not that they introduced the idea. You said any metal bands who uses those themes owes all to Sabbath.


Be honest, you're being this intentionally ignorant just to annoy me, aren't you?
And I said that because it indeed WAS Sabbath who introduced it in the context of metal/hard rock, as a constant theme and just a mere flirtation.

dmille wrote:
Cooper was Sabbath's contemporary and much more popular in the US than Sabbath was.


It may be a moot point, but Sabbath already had their trademark sound by late 68/early 69. At that time, Cooper was putting out poppier albums like "Prettier For You". He didnt develop the horror routine until around 1970. By that time, Sabbath had already cornered the market.

dmille wrote:
Another of their contemporaries, Black Widow was using the same imagery in their songs and concerts at the same time. Sabbath wasn't doing this in some vacuum. And they weren't the only ones.


I was talking about this in the context of how it influenced future metal bands.
Something tells me that Black Widow weren't even one-thousandth as influential on the concept as Sabbath.

dmille wrote:
Zeppelin, Purple and Heep were not making anything like "Black Sabbath"? Maybe because they weren't clones. On that same note, Sabbath never made anything like "Dazed & Confused", "Child In Time", or "Gypsy" either.


Then let me clarify.
I didn't mean that those bands weren't writing songs that sounded LIKE "Black Sabbath", I meant they weren't writing songs of the same dark and edgy nature.
What do you think was more of a shock to people in 1970 - hearing "Black Sabbath" or hearing
"Dazed And Confused"? Come on now...
I agree on "Child In Time" and "Gypsy" somewhat, simply because I have an undying love for those tunes, but even they were not pushing the envelope in quite the same way "Black Sabbath" was.

dmille wrote:
Just when did this "official" metal scene come into being? Fact is that, no, it didn't have a long way to go; any more than progressive rock or glam rock somehow had a long way to go in 70.


Are you fugging serious?
Of COURSE it had a long way to go. No genre is complete within the first 1-2 years of it's formation, are you insane?
So you're basically saying that an infant is an adult by the time it's 2 years old?
To paraphrase Alice Cooper, it still had a long way to go. There were still many more bands to be heard, more subgenres to be developed, more barriers to be broken, just more things in general.
I cant imagine a bunch of young people in 1969 standing around talking about the "heavy metal scene". It was too new at that point. It wasn't mainstream yet.

dmille wrote:
Getting played on the radio automatically makes a song radio-friendly? Where do you come up with this bullshit? The industry HATED heavy metal. Songs like "Paranoid", "Black Night" and "Whole Lotta Love" only got air play because of their popularity and then fan demand forced them to be played.


Paranoid has still become a radio-friendly song since that time.
Circumstances aside.

dmille wrote:
Your original question was how are War Pigs, Iron Man and Paranoid important as songs. I don't recall you asking why Black Sabbath was important.


I didn't.
You said War Pigs, Paranoid, and Iron Man were important because they "kick ass".
So I said "Black Sabbath" kicks ass too".
That's it.

dmille wrote:
I notice that you ignored the rest of my answer about why they were important as songs. Maybe that's why you changed the subject. You said in another thread something about metal being your first love. How can that be when you have to ask what is important about those three songs?


I didn't ignore the rest of your answer. I said all the things you mentioned had to do with popularity more than impact or influence.
It's not my fault you cant read or you need bifocals or whatever.

dmille wrote:
Fact is that everyone has to start somewhere. When someone becomes a rock or hard rock or metal fan, they'd usually start with what they've heard on the radio or what they've heard in someone else's music collection. In 1970 or 2012, it's more much likely that a metal head's introduction to Sabbath is going to be thru the Paranoid album, rather than their debut.


So Paranoid is the first album they buy because it's popular and had a lot of hype.
How does that change the fact that these criteria are still WITHIN the world of metal. It's about having a far-reaching effect on metal as a whole.
A bunch of teenyboppers buying Paranoid because it was "OMG so popular!" doesn't change that fact.


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 Post subject: Re: The top 10 songs by artists index
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 1:58 pm 
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Negative Creep wrote:
dmille wrote:
Your original statement was not that they introduced the idea. You said any metal bands who uses those themes owes all to Sabbath.
Be honest, you're being this intentionally ignorant just to annoy me, aren't you? And I said that because it indeed WAS Sabbath who introduced it in the context of metal/hard rock, as a constant theme and just a mere flirtation.

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Cooper was Sabbath's contemporary and much more popular in the US than Sabbath was.

It may be a moot point, but Sabbath already had their trademark sound by late 68/early 69. At that time, Cooper was putting out poppier albums like "Prettier For You". He didnt develop the horror routine until around 1970. By that time, Sabbath had already cornered the market.


In late 68/early 69, Sabbath was not a recording act. In the US, it was mostly only industry people who had heard of them. The UK has been important in rock & roll since 1964. But because of its size, being big in the UK is only slighter more than being big in California or in New York. Alice Cooper had already released an album, toured the US and made several TV appearances before anyone over here had heard of "Black Sabbath".

This song was the lead single from Pretties For You. You explain how it's poppy.



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Another of their contemporaries, Black Widow was using the same imagery in their songs and concerts at the same time. Sabbath wasn't doing this in some vacuum. And they weren't the only ones.

I was talking about this in the context of how it influenced future metal bands. Something tells me that Black Widow weren't even one-thousandth as influential on the concept as Sabbath.


But that wasn't what you said. "They owe Sabbath ALL, dude!" You talk about it as if Sabbath is the be-all and end-all. They weren't working in a vacuum.

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Zeppelin, Purple and Heep were not making anything like "Black Sabbath"? Maybe because they weren't clones. On that same note, Sabbath never made anything like "Dazed & Confused", "Child In Time", or "Gypsy" either.

Then let me clarify. I didn't mean that those bands weren't writing songs that sounded LIKE "Black Sabbath", I meant they weren't writing songs of the same dark and edgy nature. What do you think was more of a shock to people in 1970 - hearing "Black Sabbath" or hearing "Dazed And Confused"? Come on now... I agree on "Child In Time" and "Gypsy" somewhat, simply because I have an undying love for those tunes, but even they were not pushing the envelope in quite the same way "Black Sabbath" was.


Problem with your argument is that "Dazed And Confused" came out a full year before "Black Sabbath". Zeppelin already had two albums worth of material out by 1970. A newer song will always have more shock value. And IMO those song do have the same dark, edgy nature.

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Just when did this "official" metal scene come into being? Fact is that, no, it didn't have a long way to go; any more than progressive rock or glam rock somehow had a long way to go in 70.

Are you fugging serious? Of COURSE it had a long way to go. No genre is complete within the first 1-2 years of it's formation, are you insane? So you're basically saying that an infant is an adult by the time it's 2 years old? To paraphrase Alice Cooper, it still had a long way to go. There were still many more bands to be heard, more subgenres to be developed, more barriers to be broken, just more things in general. I cant imagine a bunch of young people in 1969 standing around talking about the "heavy metal scene". It was too new at that point. It wasn't mainstream yet.


Yes, I am serious. Music is not a human being. When Miles Davis released Bitches Brew in 1970, was fusion jazz just an infant that needed to develop and grow or was it already mature and fully formed? I ask again, when did this "offical" metal scene come into being?

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Getting played on the radio automatically makes a song radio-friendly? Where do you come up with this bullshit? The industry HATED heavy metal. Songs like "Paranoid", "Black Night" and "Whole Lotta Love" only got air play because of their popularity and then fan demand forced them to be played.

Paranoid has still become a radio-friendly song since that time. Circumstances aside.


How does a song become radio-friendly? It doesn't get played on top forty and oldies stations. It only gets played on stations that regularily play hard & heavy rock.

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Your original question was how are War Pigs, Iron Man and Paranoid important as songs. I don't recall you asking why Black Sabbath was important.

I didn't. You said War Pigs, Paranoid, and Iron Man were important because they "kick ass". So I said "Black Sabbath" kicks ass too". That's it.


What I said was that those tunes were important first and foremost because they were kick@ss. Then I gave other reasons why I thought they were important. I still wonder why someone who claims that metal is his first love and favorite music would need to ask about the importance of those three songs.

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I notice that you ignored the rest of my answer about why they were important as songs. Maybe that's why you changed the subject. You said in another thread something about metal being your first love. How can that be when you have to ask what is important about those three songs?

I didn't ignore the rest of your answer. I said all the things you mentioned had to do with popularity more than impact or influence. It's not my fault you cant read or you need bifocals or whatever.


This was the rest of my answer:

dmille wrote:
They had impact when they were released because people were paranoid over drugs and Vietnam and nukes and because science fiction and horror were allegories for the personal, cultural and political landscape of the times. They have long term influence due to the fact that the themes are timeless and universal.

War Pigs, Paranoid, Electric Funeral, Hand of Doom, etc. The fanatic building a bomb in some basement is just as much a war pig as anyone in uniform giving or carrying out an order. A suitcase nuke will cause the same electric funeral as any ICBM. I can't go to the theater or school without being paranoid that someone will shootup the place (Colorado, Columbine, Virgina Tech) or take hostages (Moscow, Beslan). I can't turn on the news without seeing the hand of doom everywhere.


Please explain what any of that has to do with popularity.

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Fact is that everyone has to start somewhere. When someone becomes a rock or hard rock or metal fan, they'd usually start with what they've heard on the radio or what they've heard in someone else's music collection. In 1970 or 2012, it's more much likely that a metal head's introduction to Sabbath is going to be thru the Paranoid album, rather than their debut.

So Paranoid is the first album they buy because it's popular and had a lot of hype. How does that change the fact that these criteria are still WITHIN the world of metal. It's about having a far-reaching effect on metal as a whole. A bunch of teenyboppers buying Paranoid because it was "OMG so popular!" doesn't change that fact.


You really think that's the reason that Black Sabbath went to number 1 on the UK album chart and why "Black Sabbath" went to number 4 on the singles chart? In 1970, teenyboppers were buying and listening to the Partridge Family and the Jackson 5, not Black Sabbath.

Before your answers made me think of drach, now you're starting to sound like Rock N Herbs. I refuse to believe that you're this dumb.

I understand why you want to change the criteria. I didn't set them either. Take away popularity and "Black Sabbath" becomes the equal of any track on Paranoid. But right or wrong, popularity is one-third of the criteria.


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 Post subject: Re: The top 10 songs by artists index
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 8:03 am 
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Quote:
Cooper was Sabbath's contemporary and much more popular in the US than Sabbath was.


Of course Alice were contemporaries of Sabbath. That still doesnt change the fact that Sabbath set the blueprint for it. With Cooper, the horror concept was most evident in their live shows (and occasionally in their music, with stuff like "Dead Babies" and "Black Juju") and Alice's imagery.
It didnt really translate that well onto studio albums (with a few exceptions like "Black Juju" and "Dead Babies"), like it did with Sabbath.
Alice's horror schitick was something you pretty much had to see live in concert. With Sabbath, all you had to do is put on a song like "Black Sabbath" or "Electric Funeral", and the dark, quasi-evil atmosphere is there.

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In late 68/early 69, Sabbath was not a recording act. In the US, it was mostly only industry people who had heard of them. The UK has been important in rock & roll since 1964. But because of its size, being big in the UK is only slighter more than being big in California or in New York. Alice Cooper had already released an album, toured the US and made several TV appearances before anyone over here had heard of "Black Sabbath".


It doesn't matter if they were a recording act or not, the point is that they developed these newer themes and ideas before any of their peers. I dont see how Cooper being bigger in the USA changes that. Sabbath still did it first.
And yes, I'm aware that Alice had an album out and was touring before Sabbath's debut came out. Again, what does that change?
He was still putting out different-sounding albums like 'Pretties For You' and 'Easy Action'.
The whole darkness thing wouldn't come until 'Love It To Death'.

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This song was the lead single from Pretties For You. You explain how it's poppy.



It has a bouncier, more upbeat kind of sound that what they eventually became known for. Maybe "poppy" was the wrong word, but it still sounds drastically different from what would come two years later.
While Cooper was writing stuff like "Reflected", Sabbath were writing things like "The Wizard" and "N.I.B.".
Come on.

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But that wasn't what you said. "They owe Sabbath ALL, dude!" You talk about it as if Sabbath is the be-all and end-all. They weren't working in a vacuum.


Do you know anything about metal?! According to most of the metal community, Black Sabbath IS the be-all and end-all of metal (especially in terms of historical significance and importance). I cant even tell you how many metal artists have mentioned how Sabbath made metal what it is today, and how their lives were significantly affected by their music.
And now, that doesn't diminish what any other metal band did in any way. Black Sabbath are to metal fans what Jimi Hendrix is to rock guitar fans.

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Problem with your argument is that "Dazed And Confused" came out a full year before "Black Sabbath". Zeppelin already had two albums worth of material out by 1970. A newer song will always have more shock value. And IMO those song do have the same dark, edgy nature.


I know Dazed came out a year before Black Sabbath, but we're still talking about the same general time period here, are we not? Late 60's, early 70's?
Yes, Zep already had two albums out by early '70........and your point? It was hard blues rock, not much that hadn't already been done before.

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Yes, I am serious. Music is not a human being. When Miles Davis released Bitches Brew in 1970, was fusion jazz just an infant that needed to develop and grow or was it already mature and fully formed? I ask again, when did this "offical" metal scene come into being?


Obviously Miles Davis pioneered the concept, but it's not like fusion was a widespread, popular genre right after he released Bitches Brew. Give me a break.
Again, there was still more development to be made within the genre - Mahavishnu Orchestra, Larry Coryell, Chick Corea, plus a slew of others all had something new and interesting to add to the genre. That's the way it goes with any genre.
Would you say that rock was 'complete and fully formed' in 1956?!

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How does a song become radio-friendly? It doesn't get played on top forty and oldies stations. It only gets played on stations that regularily play hard & heavy rock.


What difference does it make what TYPE of station it is? The point is that it's a monster hit that's been played on the radio for a number of years now.
Maybe it wasn't back in it's heyday, but you know, things change.

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What I said was that those tunes were important first and foremost because they were kick@ss. Then I gave other reasons why I thought they were important. I still wonder why someone who claims that metal is his first love and favorite music would need to ask about the importance of those three songs.


I can see Paranoid and Iron Man being important for making metal a little more commercial and accessible, but I still think that would fall more under popularity (and this is another clear example where all three criteria intertwine here).

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This was the rest of my answer:

dmille wrote:
They had impact when they were released because people were paranoid over drugs and Vietnam and nukes and because science fiction and horror were allegories for the personal, cultural and political landscape of the times. They have long term influence due to the fact that the themes are timeless and universal.

War Pigs, Paranoid, Electric Funeral, Hand of Doom, etc. The fanatic building a bomb in some basement is just as much a war pig as anyone in uniform giving or carrying out an order. A suitcase nuke will cause the same electric funeral as any ICBM. I can't go to the theater or school without being paranoid that someone will shootup the place (Colorado, Columbine, Virgina Tech) or take hostages (Moscow, Beslan). I can't turn on the news without seeing the hand of doom everywhere.


Please explain what any of that has to do with popularity.


Well let's start with "science fiction and horror were allegories for the personal, cultural and political landscape of the times".
Is 'Black Sabbath' not a song about horror? So how would that not fit into that description? Because it wasn't popular enough?

"Oh please, it didn't even make the charts, man!".... :roll:

That said, I think you're overstating the 'cultural influence' of these songs a bit. There were a TON of other bands who were expressing the same kind of concerned views on Vietnam, it's just that Sabbath was doing it in the context of a 'new' kind of musical style that was emerging at the time.

And 'Iron Man' is some kind of representation about Vietnam?
What the fuck does "He was turned to steel...in the great magnetic field" have to do with paranoia over the war?
I guess there were lots of vengeful super heroes walking around during Vietnam.

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You really think that's the reason that Black Sabbath went to number 1 on the UK album chart and why "Black Sabbath" went to number 4 on the singles chart? In 1970, teenyboppers were buying and listening to the Partridge Family and the Jackson 5, not Black Sabbath.


Every genre has teenybopper fans. The ones that only care about how popular and commercialized something is, without looking at the wider scope of the situation.
Metal is no exception here.

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Before your answers made me think of drach, now you're starting to sound like Rock N Herbs. I refuse to believe that you're this dumb.


Saying I sound like drach is a compliment because paul is one of my favorite posters on the site. And the amazing thing is - he can actually present an argument without being an asshole. Crazy concept, isn't it?

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I understand why you want to change the criteria. I didn't set them either. Take away popularity and "Black Sabbath" becomes the equal of any track on Paranoid. But right or wrong, popularity is one-third of the criteria.


Well "Black Sabbath" was pretty much ALWAYS in the setlist when they played live.
Hell, even when Ian Gillan joined the band, they were still doing it live.
Gillan's versions were phenomenal btw, damn near as good as the studio original.


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 Post subject: Re: The top 10 songs by artists index
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 9:06 am 
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It seems that nothing can be said about another band or about another song without you taking it as somehow diminishing Black Sabbath as a band or "Black Sabbath" as a song.

For example, you asked why Iron Man, Paranoid and War Pigs were important as songs. I don't want to have to waste site bandwidth by reposting the entire message. So I will just copy the relevant portion so you can't claim that I took it out of context.

Negative Creep wrote:
Who says metal songs got scary in the middle 80's? Never heard Judas Priest's "Tyrant"? Anything by Pagan Altar?
Where is the impact? Look, Black Sabbath was recorded at the end of 1969. There wasn't an official 'metal scene' overall yet at that time. Black Sabbath had impact on rock as a whole, but it couldn't have had INITIAL impact on metal because the genre wasn't fully established yet.
But to penalize Sabbath for that in some way is wrong, imo. You have to give that song credit for the possibilities it introduced for metal. The only thing Iron Man, War Pigs, and Paranoid have over BS is that they are more popular. But how were they important as songs (not just riffs)? Paranoid, as you say, was a fast radio-friendly rocker, but it's not like Zeppelin and Purple weren't putting out songs like that at the same time. But nobody was putting out anything like "Black Sabbath". That was the turning point.


That was your question, wasn't it? Now as I continue to ask, how is it that someone who claims that metal is his first love and favorite music needs to ask why those songs are important? How is it that you didn't already know why they're important?

"Well number one, they're kick@ss"
"Black Sabbath is a kick@ss song too"
"Yeah, but you didn't ask why Black Sabbath is an important song"
"It's still kick@ss"
"What does that have to do with your question?"
"It's still kick@ss!"
"Ok :roll: moving on, they were allegories for the personal, cultural, and political landscape of the times"
"So was Black Sabbath"
"But you didn't ask me about Black Sabbath"
"SO WAS Black Sabbath!"
"Never mind"

If you don't want the question answered, why ask it in the first fucking place?

Negative Creep wrote:
That said, I think you're overstating the 'cultural influence' of these songs a bit. There were a TON of other bands who were expressing the same kind of concerned views on Vietnam, it's just that Sabbath was doing it in the context of a 'new' kind of musical style that was emerging at the time.

And 'Iron Man' is some kind of representation about Vietnam? What the fuck does "He was turned to steel...in the great magnetic field" have to do with paranoia over the war? I guess there were lots of vengeful super heroes walking around during Vietnam.


I never used the term cultural influence, so why is quoted? I was talking about why I thought these three specific songs were important, which was your question. I wasn't talking about any other songs that might also have been out at the time.

And I also talked about why I think they are still important today. I guess I should be glad that you didn't answer that part of my post by telling me that "Black Sabbath" is still important today.

1) "Iron Man" is not about Vietnam, you dumb fuck, it's about nuclear war. In every interview that I ever read with Sabbath discussing the song, they talked about how their Iron Man was a post-world war III survivor, who travelled back through time to warn the generation that destroyed his future; when they didn't listen, he took revenge. And 2) Iron Man, the character in the song is not Iron Man, the character from the comic book and movie.

Once again as a metal fan, how is it that you didn't already know this? Maybe you're not as much of a metal fan as you claim to be.


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 Post subject: Re: The top 10 songs by artists index
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 10:15 am 
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dmille wrote:
It seems that nothing can be said about another band or about another song without you taking it as somehow diminishing Black Sabbath as a band or "Black Sabbath" as a song.


Not at all, I believe I even said that Paranoid, War Pigs, and Iron Man were all badass. And they are. It's not like Black Sabbath is the only metal song I love. It just seems like it's lack of "chart success" is making it kind of underrated here.
You yourself mentioned once before that being a 'fan favorite' is a part of popularity. In otherwords, keeping the song in the setlist for a number of years. And Sabbath did. That's a sign of it's popularity.
I'm not saying it's Iron Man-level popular, so dont get your panties in a bind, but I do think it's more popular than credited in the live context.

dmille wrote:
That was your question, wasn't it? Now as I continue to ask, how is it that someone who claims that metal is his first love and favorite music needs to ask why those songs are important? How is it that you didn't already know why they're important?


Because I didnt fucking grow up in the early 1970's so I cant attest to the cultural things that you mention.
I know of those songs being important because they commercialized metal and made it more accessible, but yet I still fail to see how that's more important than setting the entire FOUNDATION of what most metal would become in the future - dark, scary, controversial, fast with chugging guitars, etc. This song was the wellspring.

Quote:
"Well number one, they're kick@ss"
"Black Sabbath is a kick@ss song too"
"Yeah, but you didn't ask why Black Sabbath is an important song"
"It's still kick@ss"
"What does that have to do with your question?"
"It's still kick@ss!"
"Ok :roll: moving on, they were allegories for the personal, cultural, and political landscape of the times"
"So was Black Sabbath"
"But you didn't ask me about Black Sabbath"
"SO WAS Black Sabbath!"
"Never mind"


Go waste someone else's time, will you?

dmille wrote:
I never used the term cultural influence, so why is quoted?


You said "cultural impact". It's not exactly an entirely different thing. Dont start twisting your words around this far into the argument.

dmille wrote:
And I also talked about why I think they are still important today. I guess I should be glad that you didn't answer that part of my post by telling me that "Black Sabbath" is still important today.


So why does being important today mean more than being important at any other time in rock?
I seriously doubt that people listen to War Pigs and Iron Man and think about cultural issues.

Quote:
1) "Iron Man" is not about Vietnam, you dumb fuck, it's about nuclear war. In every interview that I ever read with Sabbath discussing the song, they talked about how their Iron Man was a post-world war III survivor, who travelled back through time to warn the generation that destroyed his future; when they didn't listen, he took revenge.


Oh okay, I'm sorry, that's much more understandable.
:lol:

dmille wrote:
Once again as a metal fan, how is it that you didn't already know this? Maybe you're not as much of a metal fan as you claim to be.


You know nothing about me, so feel free to believe what you want.


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 Post subject: Re: The top 10 songs by artists index
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 12:11 pm 
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Guys, I remade the greatest metal artists list:

1. Black Sabbath
2. Black Sabbath
3. Black Sabbath
4. Black Sabbath
5. Black Sabbath
6. Black Sabbath
7. Black Sabbath
8. Black Sabbath
9. Black Sabbath
10. Black Sabbath

You'll see a pattern here.


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 Post subject: Re: The top 10 songs by artists index
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 12:25 pm 
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Finally, someone talking some sense around here.

But I think Black Sabbath should still be #1.


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 Post subject: Re: The top 10 songs by artists index
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 1:48 pm 
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Negative Creep wrote:
Because I didnt fucking grow up in the early 1970's so I cant attest to the cultural things that you mention. I know of those songs being important because they commercialized metal and made it more accessible, but yet I still fail to see how that's more important than setting the entire FOUNDATION of what most metal would become in the FUTURE - dark, scary, controversial, fast with chugging guitars, etc. This song was the wellspring.

I seriously doubt that people listen to War Pigs and Iron Man and think about cultural issues.


1. That's right - influence of Black Sabbath is visible in the future. Nothing earlier than in mid 80's sounded like Black Sabbath. And as I said earlier, War Pigs and Paranoid showed the style, standards and way where heavy metal was going and HM songs were more similar to those two than to Black Sabbath. I just can't see why BS should win in IMPACT with WP or Paranoid. Not sure about Iron Man.
2. Just a word about controversy etc - your main argument about BS impact was it was very controversial at that time. Did you know that "Paranoid" album in the first version was called "War Pigs", but record company didn't want to release album with political title? That's why Paranoid album cover looks how it looks.

Negative Creep wrote:
Where is the impact? Look, Black Sabbath was recorded at the end of 1969. There wasn't an official 'metal scene' overall yet at that time. Black Sabbath had impact on rock as a whole, but it couldn't have had INITIAL impact on metal because the genre wasn't fully established yet.
But to penalize Sabbath for that in some way is wrong, imo. You have to give that song credit for the possibilities it introduced for metal. The only thing Iron Man, War Pigs, and Paranoid have over BS is that they are more popular. But how were they important as songs (not just riffs)?
Paranoid, as you say, was a fast radio-friendly rocker, but it's not like Zeppelin and Purple weren't putting out songs like that at the same time.
But nobody was putting out anything like "Black Sabbath". That was the turning point.

Impact is only initial. Thing is, I can see that tracks like Paranoid and War Pigs got followers in 70's. I'm still failing to see them in Black Sabbath case.


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 Post subject: Re: The top 10 songs by artists index
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 2:16 pm 
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Nesquik wrote:
Guys, I remade the greatest metal artists list:

1. Black Sabbath
2. Black Sabbath
3. Black Sabbath
4. Black Sabbath
5. Black Sabbath
6. Black Sabbath
7. Black Sabbath
8. Black Sabbath
9. Black Sabbath
10. Black Sabbath

You'll see a pattern here.


Is that the band list, the album list or the song list and does it really matter?


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 Post subject: Re: The top 10 songs by artists index
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 2:57 pm 
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All of the above. The song, band and album Black Sabbath is the be all and end all of metal.


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 Post subject: Re: The top 10 songs by artists index
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 4:02 pm 
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Holy shit, no way in hell am I reading through all of that.

Look, Black Sabbath isn't going to be #1. It should be top 3, possibly even 2, but "the first" just isn't that strong of an argument to justify it being that high.

Here's my proposed revision of the list:

1. Iron Man (Paranoid)
2. War Pigs (Paranoid)
3. Black Sabbath (Black Sabbath)
4. Symptom of the Universe (Sabotage)
5. Paranoid (Paranoid)
6. NIB (Black Sabbath)


Iron Man wins in all criteria including influence (it's usually one of the first riffs people learn to play) for reasons I already stated.

War Pigs should be #2 because it was one of the first indicators that metal could be a tool for social commentating. It's also a point where a couple of critics did an about face. Lester Bangs, who infamously slammed the first Sabbath album as "like Cream but worse" would go onto sing Sabbath's praises (as much as a Rolling Stone critic could). Edit: and of course I can't find the article he does about their state in 1971. But I certainly remember on the Classic Albums Paranoid DVD he would go on to refer to them as hyper-moralists.

Black Sabbath is #3 because the first, the standard setter blah blah blah

#4, I'm not sure if it should be either Into The Void or Symptom. Both of these songs were embryos for what would become speed/thrash metal. Into The Void came first, but its fast section was only a brief bridge that's barely over a minute. Symptom is more streamlined, so I think that should take that spot.

#5 is Paranoid because it was the first big hit for Sabbath, and that was important, especially in those days

I don't know why NIB was #4, and while I don't have a problem with it being on the list, I don't think it should be above Symptom or even Paranoid, where both of those songs have some sort of impact whereas NIB was just another song.

I understand if the appropriate songs are here it doesn't matter if an album isn't represented, but I feel like this list really needs something from Volume 4. Supernaut anyone?


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 Post subject: Re: The top 10 songs by artists index
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 5:03 pm 
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Posts: 1925
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MJ7 wrote:
Negative Creep wrote:
Because I didnt fucking grow up in the early 1970's so I cant attest to the cultural things that you mention. I know of those songs being important because they commercialized metal and made it more accessible, but yet I still fail to see how that's more important than setting the entire FOUNDATION of what most metal would become in the FUTURE - dark, scary, controversial, fast with chugging guitars, etc. This song was the wellspring.

I seriously doubt that people listen to War Pigs and Iron Man and think about cultural issues.


1. That's right - influence of Black Sabbath is visible in the future. Nothing earlier than in mid 80's sounded like Black Sabbath. And as I said earlier, War Pigs and Paranoid showed the style, standards and way where heavy metal was going and HM songs were more similar to those two than to Black Sabbath. I just can't see why BS should win in IMPACT with WP or Paranoid. Not sure about Iron Man.
2. Just a word about controversy etc - your main argument about BS impact was it was very controversial at that time. Did you know that "Paranoid" album in the first version was called "War Pigs", but record company didn't want to release album with political title? That's why Paranoid album cover looks how it looks.

Negative Creep wrote:
Where is the impact? Look, Black Sabbath was recorded at the end of 1969. There wasn't an official 'metal scene' overall yet at that time. Black Sabbath had impact on rock as a whole, but it couldn't have had INITIAL impact on metal because the genre wasn't fully established yet.
But to penalize Sabbath for that in some way is wrong, imo. You have to give that song credit for the possibilities it introduced for metal. The only thing Iron Man, War Pigs, and Paranoid have over BS is that they are more popular. But how were they important as songs (not just riffs)?
Paranoid, as you say, was a fast radio-friendly rocker, but it's not like Zeppelin and Purple weren't putting out songs like that at the same time.
But nobody was putting out anything like "Black Sabbath". That was the turning point.


Impact is only initial. Thing is, I can see that tracks like Paranoid and War Pigs got followers in 70's. I'm still failing to see them in Black Sabbath case.


Black metal, death metal, glam metal, power metal, thrash metal, progressive metal; now is it the slow lumbering, tempos of Iron Man, War Pigs, and Black Sabbath, that we hear in those sub-genres? Or is it the faster, charging tempos of Paranoid, Supernaut, Sabbath Bloody Sabbath, Children of the Grave, and Symptom of the Universe?


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